mon and name usage

[klaus]

Okay guys,

I know how to construct the name, is it possible to use the clan mon associated with that surname or should I try to register something close, or something completely different. Would there be any problem with using the mon without having it registered?

I want to use Ashikaga, and use their mon on sashimono, for myself and friends. Would this be "okay" within the SCA. I don't want to offend anyone with a mistake that I get to learn how stupid I was a few years later.

Name would be: Ashikaga no Kinshiro Takemasa

a friend is thinking of: Ashikaga no **** Katsunaga

Thanks!

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

klaus said:

...is it possible to use the clan mon associated with that surname or should I try to register something...different.

Well first off, there are a few things to note, 1. The CoH is not at present overly Japanese friendly, so some mon are deemed currently un-registerable. 2. Is the matter of presumption, there are a few people on the comment lists of the various kingdoms, as well as the comment list of the CoH that may deem your charge/name combination as presumptuous. 3. Not all samurai used the clan's mon; some carried/used their own. (An example: Takeda Katsuyori did not, and possibly was not allowed to, use the standard Takeda mon. Also Baba Nobufusa, one of Takeda Shingen's 24 generals, and a key member of the clan, used the same mon as Akechi Mistuhide; Nobufusa was not a member or relation to the Akechi as far as I know.)

…Would there be any problem with using the mon without having it registered?...

Possibly, some people within the SCA take great issue with this, and I feel rightly so. Especially when you are in conflict with there device/badge… It is essentially the same as identity theft, furthermore the people with registered devices/badges have gone through a long and sometimes painful process (namely because it is their art or creation that is seemingly ripped asunder and criticized by people they do not know) of getting the thing. With some people the process takes years, I myself have been waiting for months to pass kingdom, and I am a herald and on the comment list here in Atlantia!

…I want to use Ashikaga, and use their mon on sashimono, for myself and friends. Would this be "okay" within the SCA. I don't want to offend anyone with a mistake that I get to learn how stupid I was a few years later…

It is quite alright, and asking questions is a commendable way of preventing tears later.

Now, as for the Ashikaga mon… if you are talking of the one I am thinking of it is the kiri, or palowinia. This crest at one time was the provenance of the imperial court, and was given out by the Emperor for use by high officials… Considering the Ashikaga, and Toyotomi both used this mon (as well as quite a few other individuals as well as family/clans) I would tenitively have to put it into the classification of a reserved charge. (If in its single form of 3 lower leaves and 3 towers of flowered stalks.) Secondly, the depiction of the kiri often used in mon, would not be a period method or drawing the blazon, to move it through the process, I would draw it and blazon it differently. (I do not know if they would even consider the Palowinia known in the west in period) Thirdly, I have not conflict checked it, it may conflict with an already registered device.

For what it is worth, I would probably go with a different charge, the Ashikaga used quite a few of them, the others are not so well known, and also do not carry the reserved status that the kiri does.

Takeda Sanjuichiro
A lowly herald of Atlantia
and
Minister of Ceremonies (Bureau of Records, Office of Mon, USJHRS)

[klaus]

As to the Ashikaga name and mon.....

The mon I was interested in looks like two bars vertically in a circle, basically a thick equals sign. If it is a reserved, or even close to a reserved mon, or even hinted at imperial lineage, I would stay away. Please let me know if that is the case, I should have described which mon I was referring too.
I was under the impression that the Ashikaga were a large clan that existed throughout the SCA period. I know there was an Ashikaga emperor in the 1300's, and that the Minamoto were a line from the clan.
Because they were such a large clan, wouldn't there be ample opportunity for less auspicious members in the clan?

Thanks for all your help.....
Klaus

[Hiroyuki]

Isn't that mon associated with the Hatakeyama? Otagiri-dono?

Or have I once again asked something stupid? ;D

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

Hiroyuki said:

Isn't that mon associated with the Hatakeyama? Otagiri-dono?

The Hatakeyama used two mon:



In this latter one, the bars do not meet the circle. It is a very common mon. The Imagawa, Mogami, Satomi, and Shiba all used it.

The Ashikaga mon:


The mon that appears to be descibed above is used by the Baba and the Hirate.


Or does he mean this one, used by the Jinbo?

www.samurai-archives.com/kamon/jinbo.jpg[/img]
Sources:
www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html
www.samurai-archives.com/crest2.html
www.samurai-archives.com/crest3.html
www.samurai-archives.com/crest4.html
www.samurai-archives.com/crest5.html

[klaus]

I'll be adding that site to my favorites....

I don't remember the book that I found it in, I'll have to look for that tonight. However, I did find a link showing the mon in association with the Ashikaga. This isn't exactly how I remember it though. I will find the source.

www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/solveig/kamon/plate1.html

So, would it be bad manners to use that mon or should I work on making something similar (which is probably best)

Thanks!
k.

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

klaus said:

So, would it be bad manners to use that mon or should I work on making something similar (which is probably best)

In my opinion, it would be wrong to personally register a device in wide historical useage. I would, and have, registered something unique (3 ken and 3 dragon scales) for personal heraldry but also use and display the mon of the clan I am associated with by persona (the Hatakeyama currently but others could be possible over a 30 year career).

[Please Delete]

Otagiri said:

In my opinion, it would be wrong to personally register a device in wide historical useage.

But Otagiri-dono, you are not taking into account the fact that:

a) Common 'mon' were quite often assumed in period. There wasn't a CoA style organization until the Edo period, and even then they didn't seem to regulate it beyond a few edicts of what not to use.

b) Even today it is common for people to choose a mon that they like and use it (in Japan).

Mon don't fit SCA rules--people conflicted all the time. Generally you had enough different things that people would recognize who you were (e.g. two people might have a cartwheel mon, but they would each have a different great standard, or one would have a gourd as their personal mon and the cartwheel as a public mon).

-Ii

[Please Delete]

Ii said:

But Otagiri-dono, you are not taking into account the fact that:

I just reread your post. Did you mean that you think it is wrong to use and assume for your personal use, or do you think it is wrong to register it and therefore exclude others from using it?

-Ii

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

Ii said:

Did you mean that you think it is wrong to use and assume for your personal use, or do you think it is wrong to register it and therefore exclude others from using it?

This is just my personal opinion, but I mean the latter. I think it would be wrong, for instance, for me to try to register one of the above mon for my personal use since in the SCA, that would give me exclusive rights to the mon. If you make up a clan name, such as Yama Kaminari, you should make up a clan mon and expect to have exclusive rights. If you 'ally' with a historical clan, such as the Ii, Date, Hatakeyama, or Minamoto - you should expect to share that name and mon with strangers.

Perhaps a good compromise is to create a personal mon with just a few points of difference from the historical one you wish to assume.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Otagiri said:

This is just my personal opinion, but I mean the latter. I think it would be wrong, for instance, for me to try to register one of the above mon for my personal use since in the SCA, that would give me exclusive rights to the mon.......

Otagiri said:

Perhaps a good compromise is to create a personal mon with just a few points of difference from the historical one you wish to assume.

It's that registering bit that's the sticking point. If you register something with the SCA's College of Heralds, it cannot conflict with something somebody else in the Society has registered and it's not supposed to conflict with something that belonged to someone historically. (An early version of my European device got bounced for resembling the personal badge of Henry V.)

The other thing is that they won't register something that looks like you're claiming to be someone you really aren't.

From www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html

Part X.2. of the Rules of Submission"Some otherwise permissible names and armorial elements cannot be used together because joining the two creates too strong an association with famous individuals from myth, literature, or history. For example, while Rhiannon can be used as a given name, and horses can be used as charges, the two cannot be used together as it suggests the Rhiannon of Welsh myth. Similarly, charges that merely allude to a specific name on their own may become presumptuous if several such charges are used. "

Makiwara, not a herald, just lives with one.

[Please Delete]

Otagiri said:

This is just my personal opinion, but I mean the latter. I think it would be wrong, for instance, for me to try to register one of the above mon for my personal use since in the SCA, that would give me exclusive rights to the mon. If you make up a clan name, such as Yama Kaminari, you should make up a clan mon and expect to have exclusive rights. If you 'ally' with a historical clan, such as the Ii, Date, Hatakeyama, or Minamoto - you should expect to share that name and mon with strangers.

I like this approach very much. It goes along with what Takeda-dono and I were discussing for how mon should be registered: anyone who registers a 'mon' should give explicit permission to conflict with any other 'mon'--perhaps allow people to register a particular arrangement of mon, great standard, lesser standard, etc., but never just one.

-Ii

[Please Delete]

Makiwara said:

It's that registering bit that's the sticking point. If you register something with the SCA's College of Heralds, it cannot conflict with something somebody else in the Society has registered and it's not supposed to conflict with something that belonged to someone historically. (An early version of my European device got bounced for resembling the personal badge of Henry V.)

Little sticking point: nothing that belonged to someone important, historically. They pretty much have a list of those, I believe. Otherwise, nobody would be able to register anything because it all conflicts with someone out there somewhere, I'm sure.

Makiwara said:

The other thing is that they won't register something that looks like you're claiming to be someone you really aren't.

From www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html

Part X.2. of the Rules of Submission"Some otherwise permissible names and armorial elements cannot be used together because joining the two creates too strong an association with famous individuals from myth, literature, or history. For example, while Rhiannon can be used as a given name, and horses can be used as charges, the two cannot be used together as it suggests the Rhiannon of Welsh myth. Similarly, charges that merely allude to a specific name on their own may become presumptuous if several such charges are used. "

This is where it gets sticky, although I was allowed a variation on the 'Ii' family mon. We could also make a case that claiming a mon and a family name does not presume any actual power or land as there were minor people of those clans as well as powerful ones.

-Ii

[Saionji Shonagon]

Little sticking point: nothing that belonged to someone important, historically. They pretty much have a list of those, I believe. Otherwise, nobody would be able to register anything because it all conflicts with someone out there somewhere, I'm sure.

Agreed. ;->

M.

[Sakurai Takamori]

Sorry to drag this thread up from the past, but am having distinct mon problems. . . .

Having read these posts and some other sources on SCA heraldry, I'm stuck as to what to do.
If I choose a name that is even losely associated with a historically extant clan (Takeda, Minamoto etc) am I allowed to use the clan mon on garb, sashimono etc?
And if so would it have to be registered? I assume not, given some of the comments earlier in this thread.
This would not be my personal device/mon. . . .simply my persona showing allegiance to his clan.

The reason I ask is that I am preparing for the grand debut of my new still-in-the-works Japanese persona at my shire's first war camp of the season (end of this month) and I want to have something to show....
I'm hestiant to devise a personal mon and register it because of all the potential conflicts.

One way of reading it is that most mons (even most mon elements) seem to be already associated with a historical family and are therefore verboten for personal SCA use.
Unless I come up with something utterly new (And I confess the creative juices are running dry on that) what should I do?
Given the apparent minefield of conflicts either with SCA mons already registered or "real" historical Japanese clans and individuals, do we start to add non-Japanese heraldic elements to a mon?
Do we venture further into the more geometric designs? (as I have seen with some SCA mons)

I want to obey the rules, not conflict but also not restrict people through my eventual choice of design...and in gneral come up with an appropriate mon that doesn't nark anyone off.
but right at the moment (and perhaps it's due to overall Japanese brain fatigue given the amount of research material I've been going through this past month) I am wel and truly flumoxed.

As usual, I appeal to wiser heads on the list for assistance.

veejay