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Post by Noriko on Oct 7, 2007 20:08:06 GMT -5
Hello!
I've decided to get involved in the local cooks guild and now I'm looking for recipes. I was surfing over at the yahoo group and I saw passing message of someone translating some period sources. Would anyone either know where I can find the translation or the original (and hopefully in modern Japanese) sources?
Thanks!
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Post by Please Delete on Oct 7, 2007 21:24:49 GMT -5
I've been doing some work with Ryori Monogatari. I still need to get it in a better state, but there are a couple of Japanese editions that I've seen--unfortunately, the only one I have an author on is Egawa, who has some good discussions on it (all in Japanese). The other copy I've seen a facsimile of is a copy held by the V&A, and it has a good inline modern Japanese transliteration as well as good footnotes, but I don't know the bibliographic details for that one.
Realize that the original Japanese recipes (and, FYI, this was written in 1643, technically out of period, but usually considered acceptable for cooking sources) are not clearly written from a modern recipe standard. A lot of things are along the lines of 'cook until it is done' or 'add tamari to taste'. Without a good grounding in Japanese food, it can be difficult to discern what is 'good' or not. For instance, most Western cooks probably don't realize that you shouldn't boil dashi after it is made, or you can ruin the flavor, etc. Even with a good grounding in Japanese food, it can be difficult to know what things would have tasted like then, but at least it will put you on a decent footing.
Not knowing your experience with Japanese food, I would first recommend to anyone that you go ahead and get a Japanese cookbook and work on recipes. Also, if you can, go out and eat good Japanese food--try everything on the menu (well, you can pretty much avoid sushi--but try all the 'appetizers', soups, sunomono, etc.). Make sure you know what the food tastes like--this is one of the largest problems I've had in the SCA is people making food from a culture where they apparently have no idea what that culture's food tastes like, so when it says 'season to taste', how do you know?
All that said, if you are looking for some ideas, I'd be happy to try to help.
-Ii, rambling on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...
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Post by Noriko on Oct 7, 2007 21:40:40 GMT -5
Well, I learned as much about the vagueness of recipes from the medieval cooking class at the Novice Schola. I'm willing to try to 'redact' recipes since that seems to be part of the challege and part of the fun. I have eaten Japanese food before[1] and have tried my hand at a few recipes (though it tends to be limited to rice bowls, onigiri and the occasional sushi roll).
Do you know if there are any editions, Japanese or otherwise, of the Ryori Monogatari available stateside?
[1] "Japan in a Box" at the Porter Square mall has like six or seven different Japanese restaurants as well as a market and sushi bar. Since I lived in a sublet with a near non-existant kitchen for two months (all you could really make were noodles, microwave dinners and sandwiches), I ate there a lot.
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madyaas
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Post by madyaas on Oct 8, 2007 1:04:24 GMT -5
Make sure you know what the food tastes like--this is one of the largest problems I've had in the SCA is people making food from a culture where they apparently have no idea what that culture's food tastes like, so when it says 'season to taste', how do you know?\ This is why it's difficult for me to write up a recipe for Filipino food, because a lot of it I work by feel and how it should taste. It's not an easy thing to do. However, even among people of that culture, things can vary quite a bit depending on their taste as well. Of course, getting a good grounding on how things should taste depends upon trying several different restaurants to find a "happy medium". |
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Post by Please Delete on Oct 8, 2007 8:08:54 GMT -5
Of course, getting a good grounding on how things should taste depends upon trying several different restaurants to find a "happy medium". Exactly. I would stress, though, that one should look for good restaurants. There are a lot of sushi-ya in the states that over-boil their miso soup or similar things--I've run into many that are run by American corporations that are trying to 'cash in' on the American love of sushi. It would be like trying to hone your skills at appreciating music by listening only to cover bands. Granted, I've lived places where finding decent Japanese food is difficult or impossible, so your circumstances may mean trying what you can. -Ii |
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Post by Noriko on Oct 8, 2007 9:20:00 GMT -5
It would be like trying to hone your skills at appreciating music by listening only to cover bands. Hey, I've heard some good cover bands!  |
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madyaas
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Post by madyaas on Oct 8, 2007 13:23:18 GMT -5
Exactly. I would stress, though, that one should look for good restaurants. There are a lot of sushi-ya in the states that over-boil their miso soup or similar things--I've run into many that are run by American corporations that are trying to 'cash in' on the American love of sushi. It would be like trying to hone your skills at appreciating music by listening only to cover bands. Granted, I've lived places where finding decent Japanese food is difficult or impossible, so your circumstances may mean trying what you can. -Ii We have tons of restaurants here. My favorite (formerly Yamato, now Michie's) was frequented by a group of Japanese retirees, and a couple of exchange students exclaimed "This is just like food at home!" What I liked was: - Miso soup was flavorful, but obviously not overboiled (i'm not a fan of the bland, tasteless miso I've had in lots of other places) - Teriyaki beef was an actual thin steak, rather than paper thin shavings coated in a thick sauce like cheaper places here serve. They served their sauce on the side and it was thinner and less like syrup. - Tempura was light blonde, lacey, non-greasy, and cooked perfectly. - They had the best pork spare ribs, so tender the meat came cleanly off the bone. Once it switched over (the family who owned it under Yamato retired), it wasn't quite the same, but it is still tasty. What I usually look for is "is the owner actually Japanese, and are they doing the cooking?" A bit discriminatory yes, but it tells me that they generally know what things should properly taste like. Fortunately, we have a big enough Japanese population here that finding good restaurants isn't hard. I avoid the popular touristy places here, and the commercial Japanese inspired show places like Beni Hana. |
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Post by solveig on Oct 8, 2007 21:40:17 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! The best edition of Ryori Monogatari to work from is included in ZGR 19 GE. Basically the 3rd volume of volume 19 of ZGR (Zokugunshoryuji). It appears to be an exact copy in clear print of the original which you would be well advised to avoid. There is also a partial translation into modern Japanese available. I believe that all three are currently out of print, so you are pretty much reduced to library sources. Also, to the best of my knowledge no translation has been published. There are multiple problems with translation. The chief one being identification of the words used in the manuscript. Many of the words are not exactly standard. Regardless, you can borrow copies through interlibrary loan. Give your librarian the following ISBN: 479710077X.
Ahh. The kitchen in my apartment in Japan measured 3 JO (9ft x 6ft) and at one point I had a single burner hotplate and a cold water sink. One of my friends had a smaller facility attached to her single room. At one point I met this fellow who was running a monthly "restaurant" in his apartment to which he invited various people. He had small kitchen appliances sitting on his floor and any other available surface. The point is, Japanese routinely cook with limited facilities.
As for dashi, my cooking instructor said that you do not boil soup after adding miso. Dashi itself is made via process which involves a rolling boil.
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Post by Noriko on Oct 9, 2007 6:59:06 GMT -5
N Ahh. The kitchen in my apartment in Japan measured 3 JO (9ft x 6ft) and at one point I had a single burner hotplate and a cold water sink. One of my friends had a smaller facility attached to her single room Well, it wasn't that it was poorly stocked, it was that it was so narrow, one could hardly turn around in it. Plus I didn't know how long I would be staying so I didn't want to stock up on random ingredients just yet. It was just easier to eat at the stalls. Thanks for the information on the resources available. Do you know if there are any modern Japanese books on historical cooking (secondary sources) that might be helpful? I took three years of Japanese and it might be good practice now that I'm no longer in school. |
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Post by solveig on Oct 9, 2007 21:23:18 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! Are you interested in a particular period? How many ISBN's do you want?
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Post by Noriko on Oct 10, 2007 7:59:15 GMT -5
Heian would be good though Kamakura will do as well. As for ISBNs, the most common books that are easy to find and not too expensive would be great.
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