Armor lacing

[sebastian]

Pardon my lack of knowledge here, I don't know the terminology for what I'm looking for

I'm planning on building my first suit of armor very soon and I know I will be needing an abundance of lacing. However, rather than scour for sources of authentic laces, I was curious if there are sufficient resources out there (available free, or relatively inexpensively) to learn how to weave the laces yourself?

I understand it's a rather large undertaking, and that making all the lacing for my armor will probably take substantially longer than I think. However, it would give me a whole lot more pride in my finished product to know that I had done the work.

Thank you all in advance!

[Imagawa Tadamori]

The term you want is "kumihimo". There are several posts regarding it on this site.

Sebastian-dono, I will be the last to deter you if you are truly feeling so inclined, but to call making enough lacing for armor "a rather large undertaking" is like calling the Grand Canyon "a hole in the ground".

That is a LOT of kumihimo to do. If you're going to do it in silk (to be historically accurate), plan on spending +/- $1200. Be careful with your braiding to minimize the stretching and braid size consistency issues. It will be load bearing, after all, and you want it to look nice. Don't forget to make extra for when your armor gets beat up on the field!

If you're only braiding enough for sugake odoshi, and you braid for roughly 25 hours per week... you could possibly be ready to start lacing your armor by New Years.

Tomodachi, I have had this same idea, done the research, learned how to do kumihimo, priced the silk, etc. I timed how long it took me to make one yard of lacing, as to get a time estimate of how long the project would take. The aforementioned numbers were based on my findings.

A desire for a superior finished product is admirable. It really is. But you will find yourself questioning whether handmade lacing is really worth the exceptional amount of effort involved.

If you choose to pursue it, blow our minds with the end result, because I believe you would be the first to complete it. If you change your mind and go with machine-woven lacing, nobody here will fault you for it. You can still have mind-bogglingly stunning armor with machine-woven lacing.

As your fellow nihonjin, I simply ask that you REALLY understand what you are going to be asking of yourself going the handmade route.

- Imagawa

[sebastian]

Oh, I understand the large undertaking, but I couldn't quite find the words for it

To elaborate a little on my plan (as of now, subject to change) is to purchase the machine woven lacing for my armor at first, and then proceed to weave new lacing for it. That way I will have a functional suit, and know exactly how much lacing I will need for the end result.

The only part right now that is a bit staggering is the price of the silk. Is there an alternative to that which is more cost effective? I would LOVE to be 100% accurate, but being unemployed(currently) $1200 give or take doesn't seem to sit well, haha.

So, I'll throw a search out on the forums for kumihimo, and send this question out there (which is probably answered already in many places, but if I don't ask now I'll probably forget where are some locations to buy machine woven kumihimo?

Again, thanks for the info

[takadainotora]

There are some machine-made braided cords out there that resemble kumihimo and would work for putting your armor together.
Since your armor lacing doesn't have to resist sword cuts, you could substitute polyester machine embroidery thread for the silk thread, thereby saving buckets o' money.
While the ideal would have been to have all your armor laced together with a 4 color kikko pattern, that would have been awful expensive, so in many cases plain, solid colored braid is used for the majority of the lacing with the fancy-schmancy stuff saved for tying on the shoulder bits and other places where it would be more noticeable.

Why yes, I AM a kumihimo geek...truly, keep asking here or feel free to PM me with questions, pattern stuff, etc. I'd be glad to help.

Tora, known to the nanban as Luighseach nic Lochlainn

[Kano Hiroyoshi]

When I first started my armor, I too thought it would be cool to make the lacing myself. I never EVER considered doing enough lace for the whole thing, but I did start learning kumihimo. I wanted to do the red for the hishinui and the black and white for the mimi ito.

In the end, neither of those ended up happening. Even being unemployed at the time, I just didn't have enough time to do it myself. You should know that it will take you three or four yards of lace before you get the hang of kumihimo (at least it did for me), but if you have to do 40-50 yards for a whole suit (assuming sugake odoshi), 3 or 4 to learn isn't a huge deal.

If you're still not deterred, then learning kumihimo is not expensive. You can order books off amazon, or just check your local library, and making your own marudai is not hard.

As for machine-woven braid, the source I used was ELC Industries. They have a wide variety of colors and materials available. I would recommend polyester or nylon in 3/8" or 1/2". The downside is they only sell their braid in 144yd rolls. This was perfect for me because I laced my armor in kebiki odoshi and used about 120 yards, but if you lace in sugake you'll have three times as much lace as you need.

[sebastian]

Thank you all for the insight

I'm still not deterred from undertaking the project, but a bit overwhelmed right now. Some searches for kumihimo supplies turned up about 4 different braiding stands, and a handful of different styles. So my next questions would be; What style of kumihimo is used for the lacing? Is it flat, or rounded? How wide is it? And were patterns more often used to create it, or was it mostly a solid color?

[AJBryant]

Question: Have you LOOKED at much Japanese armour before? Just DOING that should answer many of those questions. If you've read my armour manual, it should answer most of the others.

[sebastian]

I've been working my way through the armor manual in my spare time, but I have yet to find a large amount of historical armor in one place. I always see some stuff mentioned, but can never remember what to look for.

[takadainotora]

May 27, 2009 12:00:38 GMT -5 sebastian said:

Thank you all for the insight

I'm still not deterred from undertaking the project, but a bit overwhelmed right now. Some searches for kumihimo supplies turned up about 4 different braiding stands, and a handful of different styles. So my next questions would be; What style of kumihimo is used for the lacing? Is it flat, or rounded? How wide is it? And were patterns more often used to create it, or was it mostly a solid color?

If you haven't been to braidershand dot com, go there. There's a lot of information on the site.
As far as "dai" or braiding stands, you probably want a marudai, which can make flat, solid round, solid square or hollow (flat) braids. Flat braid seems to be the most used for armor. Lacing could be solid colored or have up to four colors. Ask one of the armorers how wide, I'm just a humble braider, at any rate, some patterns would be made bigger by using more threads on each bobbin, others by using more bobbins, 16 instead of 8 for example. We do know some of the specific braid structures that were used because there are extant pieces of armor that were given to temples that have some of the original lacing still in place and fiber anthropologists have studied and recreated the patterns.
BTW, you're asking great questions--keep it up.

[sebastian]

Thank you for that info

It so happens that braidershand was one of the first spots I found, and was bombarded with information. The Marudai looked to be what I needed, but there were still like 4 different dai that I had no idea what to make of them, haha. I'll be hitting the armor manual to lace size, and probably trying to find some pictures of period armor. If anyone has any links to galleries of armor, or any tips for braiding books/patterns, please let me know

Also, will I need a full sized Marudai, or would a kumihimo disc work?

[takadainotora]

Marudai is about 3-4 times as fast as the kumihimo disc.

[takadainotora]

Braiding books:
Rodrick Owen, Braids 250 Patterns from Japan, Peru and Beyond is a good introductory book, lots of pictures showing how you can change the color patterns on a braid structure.
Makiko Tada, Comprehensive Treatise on Braiding volume whatever is Marudai 1.
Jacquie Carey--I don't have any of her books, but I've used friends' copies and they are very clearly written with good diagrams.
All of these books are at Braidershand, the Rodrick Owen book may be on Amazon and you might get lucky at a used bookstore or on eBay.

[sebastian]

Oh wow. Then I will definitely be getting/making a marudai soon. The braider's hand one is VERY nice, but I don't have the extra $100 or so to shell out for it now More concerned on building up my garb closet (only 3 kosode and 1 pair of hakama, oi!) The design doesn't look like it would be too hard to fabricate, I just need to find dimensions for the disk on the top.

Do you have any suggestions for books/sites to get started with? And does the thread type make a huge difference? Is one type easier to start with than another? And is there a thread I can start with that can be found at most craft stores, and not need to be special ordered?

[takadainotora]

May 27, 2009 21:52:53 GMT -5 sebastian said:

Oh wow. Then I will definitely be getting/making a marudai soon. The braider's hand one is VERY nice, but I don't have the extra $100 or so to shell out for it now snip )The design doesn't look like it would be too hard to fabricate, I just need to find dimensions for the disk on the top.

Do you have any suggestions for books/sites to get started with? And does the thread type make a huge difference? Is one type easier to start with than another? And is there a thread I can start with that can be found at most craft stores, and not need to be special ordered?

The mirror [the top] on my braidershand marudai is just over 12" in diameter; this is slightly larger than average, but would work well for a tall(ish) woman or most men {*If the mirror on the marudai is too big for the braider, the resulting awkward movements cause sore shoulders} The hole in the middle is 2" in diameter and the dished out area extends out from the hole for about 3".
Rodrick Owen's 250 Braids book has a pattern for a vertical bobbin you can use instead of tama [the traditional bobbins] which you can make out of doweling, closet pole and washers; they cost about $1.00 each which is a major savings.
To learn on, I'd say try good old DMC embroidery floss; it's inexpensive and will give you a feel for handling the materials. The sewing machine embroidery thread isn't that expensive; if you have someplace in your area that does embroidery on shirts, etc, they might be willing to tell you where they get theirs or let you order through them. I'm close enough to the Los Angeles garment/fabric district that I buy my thread there. Thread shouldn't cost you more than $10 for a big honking spool. You could also try a local sewing machine/quilting supply store, they often have smaller spools of polyester machine embroidery thread.

[suze]

Hi all - Lurker here

All the books mentioned are great - but Jacquie Carey does have a book called "The Samuari Undressed" It's out of print right now but it would be worth it to see if you can find it.

I made my Marudai out of myself out of a wood "cake plate" I used the bottom of the pedistal for the mirror and carved a hole in the middle - some candle cups and dowel sticks later (and a LOT of sand paper to get it nice and smooth)

My tama are craft spools with a big bolt and some heavy washers on them

I am slowly upgrading to the "real stuff"

Braiders hand has the Imposter line of rayon thread and it really is softer than silk (in my hands anyway)

I haven't tried it yet but I bought some Sulky Rayon Thread to try for some braids (it was on sale at Jo-Ann's Fabric)

I don't know how many bobbins of thread there should be in a cord (saumari book is not at hand right now) but if it only four, you might want to look up whipcord braiding. Done with four bobbins hanging it goes FAST -- I did a full skein of embroidrey floss in the space of one movie - 8 ish yards worth. Braided up to about 7 yards. Once you get the tension factor down. and you really cant tell the difference in the braid. (and yes you can do it by yourself - see the first link)

www.eithni.com/Whipcordingdemo.htm

www.blazingsword.com/images/VikingWhipcordBraid.doc

And to tell you the truth I tried one of those disks and didn't like the way the cord came out - I couldn't get any part of it to come out "even", where the first braid on the stand came out pretty good and worthy of showing off.

Mr Owen's book shows a lot of different ways to make a stand that are not expensive -- one is even made out of a cardboard box!

Good Luck with your project!