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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Aug 6, 2009 18:51:32 GMT -5
Tyotto Shitsumon
So, I was messing around the other day with holding a rapier like a katana and fighting that way (I suppose now I shall have to work my set towards cut and thrust and then eventually heavy fighting). It got me wondering though, there are period manuals on sword work and especially rapier fighting. I wonder if there are many (any) period manuals on Japanese swordsmanship, specifically with pictures? I've looked over Go rin no sho but Musashi keeps saying "Well, here's something cool you can do but it doesn't make sense in writing, you need to practice it."
Just wondering if anybody knew whereabouts I might get my hands on something.
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Post by Please Delete on Aug 6, 2009 20:34:13 GMT -5
There are definitely extant manuscripts for rapier. Check out the historical martial arts work out there. Here's a web page I just Googled that seems to have a fairly good overview of different manuscripts: www.thearma.org/manuals.htmAs for Japanese arts, there are some manuals, most extant from post 1600, but there are some pre-1600 drawings and evidence that could be used to recreate earlier styles. While many styles have claims back to pre-1600, it can be difficult to know what /part/ of the style actually pre-dates the Edo period, since these living arts have often continued to grow as successive licensed masters each added their own touch or kata. If you do your own research, however, you can find some of it. I don't know how much has been published regarding Mugai Ryu, but there are some interesting early kenjutsu kata in there, even though "Mugai Ryu" proper was formed in the 17th century. Likewise, Isshin Ryu kusarigamajutsu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu kenjutsu, and the various offshoots of Shinto Ryu all have early starts. Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu contains kata that are linked directly with the "Father of Iai", Hayashizaki Shigenobu. There are more that I am not taking the time to list out here. The problem is in proving the provenance of any given scroll or work, as in the Edo period and later it became lucrative to create a false history or to overplay the importance of one's history. For instance, if I can claim that my family traces its roots back to Finland and Norway, and that there were warriors in my lineage way back when, then could I claim that the techniques taught to me by my father are 10th century Viking fighting techniques? So that's what you need to be wary of; don't dismiss it, but like everything, get a wide array of experience and then examine everything in the light of a sceptic. -Ii |
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Aug 8, 2009 10:57:21 GMT -5
Blech, ARMA.
John Clements is apparently what most people would refer to as "an ass". Also apparently, he used to be a SCAdian who left in protest hen no one would give him a white belt and formed ARMA in pseudo-protest. While a lot of their techniques and materials are good and historically solid, they're a pretty stuck up bunch. We have a local chapter. Or rather, we did. Clements apparently went off the deep end and tried to claim that all research done by ARMA folks was property of the larger organization, and not the individual who did the work. This upset many of his free-scholars and he started kicking people out of the organization. To that end there is no longer officially a Provo, UT chapter of ARMA, which, ironically as soon as a year ago was lauded as a model of what an ARMA study group ought to be.
Anyway, I've had experience with period fencing manuals. I had a brief go with Fabris, which I'd ove to get my hands on again, and now I'm trying to wade through Cappoferro's dense poetic prose.
But I thank you for the point in the right direction.
I can certainly understand what you're saying about Japanese manuals though. It's sad that for a society which had such a developed writing system and was so gung ho for bureaucracy and record keeping has little to show for its martial arts training. But I suppose you could look at many modern styles and reverse engineer a lot. Which brings up nother good question, are there many kendo/jutsu manuals that actually talk about indvidual movements, like you might find in a fabris or cappoferro type manual?
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Post by Kano Hiroyoshi on Aug 8, 2009 11:48:55 GMT -5
If you have no prior experience with kenjutsu, you might try picking up Kendo: The Definitive Guide by Hiroshi Ozawa. Your local library might have a copy. www.amazon.com/Kendo-Definitive-Guide-Hiroshi-Ozawa/dp/4770021194The book has basic to moderate kendo strikes, training exercises, and ripostes. It even shows you how to fold up your hakama so the himo don't go everywhere. But be aware before diving into the book that kendo techniques don't translate well into SCA combat. There are a couple threads about it on this board, and my good friend Beodin, a 10 year veteran of classic kenjutsu, has come to the same conclusion. That said, the book still is a good starting point for figuring out your own pseudo-period fighting moves. |
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Aug 10, 2009 12:43:26 GMT -5
Well some basic experience has come up with the following:
For rapier fighting in the SCA using a sword two handed immediately changes a few things
-you have a lot less range with a thrust unless you separate your hands, this can be done effectively by first thrusting with both hands, coming up short and then releasing the left hand to extend your final distance.
-Because you are using both hands, you have a signifcantly greater amount of strength to your sword. In using both hands, I found that even the debole of my sword was able to overpower an opponent's forte. This makes cappoferro's stringeri techniques more straightforward when thinking of only the sword.
-The main guards that seem useful are Fabris' Terza and Quadrata. Some use can be made of Secunda, but Prima is useless as you are not effectively guarding much of yourself and your hands are crossed. In that same spirit, the German style Fifth guard is viable in some cases but is difficult to really guard with. Also a modified Terza may be used where you put your hands straight out and point the sword straight forward, but this is difficult to attack from in SCA Rapier.
- No experimentation has been made with a window stance, or the Japanese high guard but it seems it would only be useful in trapping an opponent. A Fool's guard may be employed similarly and feels to have a better guarding capability, which is quite the point of a fool's guard/ iron door.
Because of the limitation of range, but strength of sword, Most attacks must be made from Fabris' narrow measure.
Many attacks are combined with covering a line by taking control fo an opponent's sword and riding it into a short thrust, or most commonly a draw or tip cut. For this reason, although the attacks can be hard to place, they are very sure in their delivery. While it is possible to mistake a very subtle thrust as a movement of fabric, a proper cut will more easily be recognized. A concern was brought up with thrusting that it may be difficult to execute safely because both hands are being used. This puts more power behind a thrust and could more regularly cause excessive force to be applied, great care must be taken to break properly.
-In a variation of Kendo, most moves are not made to chop and bounce off an opponent. SCA rapier fencing done in this pseudo japanese style will require that cuts be placed on an opponent, in such a way as to not be excessively percussive, and then continue a draw across the opponent's body or limb.
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Post by norumanjin on May 4, 2010 7:00:56 GMT -5
Moderator / Censor time
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Post by Yawata Saburou Tadamori on May 8, 2010 13:13:35 GMT -5
On a LOT of threads
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Post by norumanjin on May 10, 2010 10:35:51 GMT -5
Yep, I think SPAM is more a Korean treat than a Japanese one.
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Post by Kôriki Ryuushirô Hiroshige on May 10, 2010 11:15:01 GMT -5
Yep, I think SPAM is more a Korean treat than a Japanese one. No it's not. SPAM was created by Hormel. It's a purely a product of the Americam meat packing industry.  But the british made it funny Can I have Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, baked beans and Spam. But instead of baked beans, can I have Spam? So you want.. Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, and Spam? EWWW! (had to do it) |
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Post by Yagyu Jubei Takemori on May 10, 2010 11:18:34 GMT -5
Apperently there is spam sushi..........  |
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Post by norumanjin on May 10, 2010 17:04:53 GMT -5
Yep, I think SPAM is more a Korean treat than a Japanese one. No it's not. SPAM was created by Hormel. It's a purely a product of the Americam meat packing industry. But the british made it funny Can I have Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, baked beans and Spam. But instead of baked beans, can I have Spam? So you want.. Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, and Spam? EWWW! (had to do it) It's actually a significant gift item in Korea - go figure |
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Post by norumanjin on May 10, 2010 17:07:13 GMT -5
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on May 10, 2010 17:21:37 GMT -5
Apperently there is spam sushi.......... Spam musubi is actually a Hawaiian delicacy. I had the opportunity to try some at a local Obon festival last summer and it's much better than I expected it to be: rice, a piece of grilled spam, seaweed. |
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on May 10, 2010 21:40:29 GMT -5
spam with rice is secretly really good
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But the british made it funny
