2 Part Question about specific mon

[Kitagawa Natsutarou Tsubasa]

Alrighty, been a while since I posted here, but I am finally starting to get everything together. Right now, I am trying to organise my submissions.

I have decided that I want my mon to be of the vermillion bird (hou-ou)

Now, I am not the worlds best artist (or anywhere near good at anything that isnt a stickman with a stick sword on a stick horse) so I will be taking advantage of SCA's heraldic policy of leniancy on similarities on heraldic devices that arnt well known (ie, use someone elses).

here is an image of a book cover. I really like the image at the bottom middle. Would it be appropriate in any japanese period to use that image as a heraldic device?

images.betterworldbooks.com/048/Japanese-Design-Motifs-9780486228747.jpg

Second part, can anyone provide any helpful info on related mon? I am sure that many of you have probably seen something really smick, and I would appreciate any pointers on a nice device.

Regards,

Tsuinjin

[Saionji Shonagon]

Disclaimer: I am not a herald.

A quick search on the SCA ordinary and armorial returned more than 300 registered devices containing the phoenix (which is the bird in that image). oanda.sca.org/oanda_bp.cgi?p=phoenix&c=case-insensitive&l=500&s=name+only&d=modern&g=enabled&a=disabled

You might be able to get away with using it by differentiating in the blazon that it's a "Japanese phoenix, " because it's represented somewhat differently than a European heraldic phoenix.

[Noriko]

My go-to mon/Japanese design website has a phoenix that looks like this:
www.otomiya.com/kamon/animal/houou.htm

Google translate sez:
translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.otomiya.com%2Fkamon%2Fanimal%2Fhouou.htm&act=url

[mitsuhide]

I am horrible with the computer stuff can't you translate the page so you can read it in English??

[Kitagawa Natsutarou Tsubasa]

Thank you all for your links.

I found some blokes tattoo and liked the basic shape. I cleaned up the head, removed details (such as a bottom beak, random feathers ect). I must say, I do actually like this general design.

I think that the original does not do the bird any favours, and that my roughed up one makes the bird appear more regal.

Please keep in mind that this is not near a submission. This is a rough paint job and I wont be using neon blue in my final . I am hoping to find someone who can line draw this up for me and make it beautiful.

What do you think?

Attachments:

[Kitagawa Natsutarou Tsubasa]

This is the original

Attachments:

[solveig]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig! You posted a link to a "hou'ou" which is a variety of phoenix. There is also another variety out there.

[solveig]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig! Changing the design from the historical one is generally a mistake especially if you anticipate difficulty registering the design. Japanese kamon pretty much always depict birds in such a way that the plumage is visible. You should not have removed the feathers from the neck and head of the bird.

[Kitagawa Natsutarou Tsubasa]

Cheers Solveig,

The original kamon I edited was not based directlyupon a historical peice. It was done by a tattoo artist. I felt it was overdone. That is why I changed what I did.

As the vermillion bird had the neck of a snake, I believe that feathers are a no go. As far as traditional art goes, it often has a bare neck, though commonly has plumage as well.

[Noriko]

Here are kamon in EPS files[1]. Top, third and fifth from the left and second row, second from the left are phoenixes.

eps.crest-japan.net/animal/index_en.php

While I don't think the phoenix is a protected charge in SCA heraldry, it is a connotation of royalty in Japan, IIRC, so I don't know if it would be considered "presumptuous heraldry" or not- I'm not a herald. However, I'm pretty sure that the SCA isn't really going to distinguish between a European Phoenix and a Japanese Phoenix- heck, it sometimes doesn't distinguish between two birds! (i.e. if someone had a raven as their charge in the same position as your phoenix, it may not be considered different enough to register. But again, I'm not a herald, just a nerd who likes reading the LoaR archives, lol)


[1]Illustrator. If you want them converted to another format, drop me a PM.