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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Mar 27, 2011 16:51:30 GMT -5
I was kinda bored and I decided to translate the basic Artemisian AoA scroll into japanese. I wanted to check my translation against the expertise of others. I tried to use fairly formal language (Though not proper period vocabulary and grammar) and I'm wondering if this sounds about right. To me, it sounds viable. I also wonder about some of the specialized vocabulary and whether or not there should be further translations of said words (Grant of Arms, Kingdom names, etc.)
Contextually, we're looking at a scroll to be presented within the anachronistic kingdom of Artemisa, not necessarily the Imperial Court of Japan. The three texts below are the scroll text in English, Romaji, and modern Kanji. Sentences are separated for convenience of comparison.
Be it known that We, <K> and <Q>, King and Queen of Artemisia, having determined to give an Award of Arms to Our subject <N>, do hereby award unto <him/her> <blazon>
We do hereby affirm <his/her> sole and exclusive right to bear these arms in the Society for Creative Anachronism.
Done by Our hand this <#> day of <month>, Anno Societatis <#>, being the year <#> of the Gregorian calendar.
SCA – souzoujidaisakugokyoukai
創造時代錯誤協会
Kono mono to Shirinasai yo. Yomogi ookoku no Heika-domo to nari <K> no Oo to <Q> no Ojou wa wareware no shinmin to iu <N> ni Kamonshou wo sazukerou gozaimasu.
Tsumari, <N> to iu shinmin ni <blazon> wo kudasarou gozaimasu.
De gozaimashite, ano okata ni wa (SCA) ni wa sou iu kamon wo shimesu you na kenri wo tadasou gozaimasu
Kyoukaijidai <#> nen, tsumari (Imperial year #) nen, no <#> getsu no <#> nichi ni kono mono wo ware ware no te ni yori nasari de gozaimasu
この物と知りなさいよ。蓬王国の陛下友と成り＜名前＞の王と＜名前＞王女は我々の臣民と言う＜名前＞に家紋賞を授けろう御座います。
詰り、＜名前＞と言う臣民に＜家紋＞を授けろう御座います。
で御座いまして、あのお方には創造時代錯誤協会にはそう言う家紋を示すような権利を正そう御座います。
協会時代 ＜＃＞年、詰り＜時代＃＞年の＜＃＞月野＜＃＞日にこの物を我々の手に依り為さりで御座います。
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Post by Noriko on Mar 27, 2011 17:46:44 GMT -5
I don't have anything to add, as my Japanese is extremely poor but my e-dictionary tells me you're using a literal translation of SCA.
I remember when I had to write essays for Japanese class in college, to keep my professor and fellow students from wondering what I was talking about (and to make remembering it easier when I had to speak in class), I used the term "Rekishiteki Bunka Bu" Lit. Historical Culture Club ;D
In your case, however, it doesn't seem like it would be something to be concerned about.
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Mar 27, 2011 18:14:05 GMT -5
I see what you're saying and why you would use that as a translation. I'm kind of trying to come up with a formal translation for Society for Creative Anachronism. It brings up the question of what the true purpose of the SCA is and what the customs are for translating names over like that.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Mar 27, 2011 19:42:53 GMT -5
Why try to translate proper names? Artemisia is Artemisia. When we recently did a bit of court ceremony in Japanese for Cynagua Investiture, Ii-dono furnished me with a romaji translation which referred to the kingdom as "Nishi." However, my audience needed to hear (and recognize!) "West" as such, so I used that, just as we retained "Swan-kyo" for the Lord of the Swan instead of "Shiratori-dono". However, I did succumb to the temptation of pronouncing the principality name as "Sinagawa...."  Given the presence of Jesuit missionaries in the 16th c., it might be worth looking at how "Society of Jesus" was translated. |
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Mar 27, 2011 21:29:59 GMT -5
Why try to translate proper names? Artemisia is Artemisia. But we may also see that Ameica is Beikoku. Furthermore, Writing out アテミジヤ is nowhere in the range of the awesomeness of 蓬王国. And for reelz, Scrolls are all about being awesome. Did you say it as "west" or as "Oesuto"? Also another thought that just now occurs to me; if you're doing court in Japanese anyway, how much of an expectation should there be for the audience to understand what is being said? This also presumes a scroll style that comes from the 16th century. What if we're talking about something before then? |
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Mar 27, 2011 21:33:33 GMT -5
Do you want something more properly Japanese but "to the concept" or do you want something more directly translated regardless of Japanity?
Lemme know.
Tony
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Mar 27, 2011 21:39:55 GMT -5
I presume you're asking about how naturally Japanese it sounds.
I am in fact looking to brush up the translation to keep it smooth to what we may call the "Japanese Ear", rather than hitting each verb and particle in exact translation.
But when we talk about "to the concept" I'm not looking to reproduce something you would find in a period Japanese Court so much as creating a Japanese version of the SCA Award (Rather than a proper period Charter of Nobility).
I hope that makes sense.
Fluidity.
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Mar 27, 2011 22:30:54 GMT -5
Did you say it as "west" or as "Oesuto"? The point was recognizability to an English speaking audience who are inordinately proud of being the first Kingdom, so I said "West" with plenty of enunciation on the "w" and the "t" and more or less swallowed the (non-existent) "u" at the end. Ah, but we did not do the entire court in Japanese. While Their Highnesses have Japanese personae, the vast majority of their populace do not and it would not be courteous to conduct their business in a language they cannot comprehend. I merely announced the incoming Prince's coming to the outgoing prince, with a "translator." Then you're stuck if your kingdom scroll text is graven in stone and you have to incorporate "Society For Creative Anachronism." Might as well post this so you can see what it looks like: Original ceremony text: Know, oh Prince, that thy time of precedence upon this mortal plane draws to a close. There comes before you now, terrible in his grandeur, Lord of the Swan, who has passed through trial of combat to seize the temporal power of Cynagua, Principality of the West. This being the hour of his ascendancy as proclaimed by the laws and traditions of this land, the Lord of the Swan now claims his rightful place as Prince of Cynagua. O-oujisama, gozonjinasai! O-inochi wa kono tsuyu no yo ga owarou to nasai. Tadaima, orosh(i)kute orosh(i)kute, sensou no shiken (w)o tsuuka suru to Cynagua to yu West [Nishi]no koukoku ni kenryoku (w)o eru Swan-kyo ga otemae ni maitteori. Toji no dentou ya houritsu de okonau you ni kare no shihai no jikoku ni naru to Swan-kyo wa Cynagua no ouji tosh(i)te shoutou na chi-i (w)o shuuchou shiyo! お王子様、ご存知なさい！お命はこの露の世が終わろうとなさい。只今、恐ろしくて恐ろしくて、戦闘の試験を通過するとCynaguaという西の公国に権力を得るスワン卿がお手前に参っており。土地の伝統や法律で行うように彼の支配の時刻になるとスワン卿はCynaguaの王子として正当な地位を主張しよ！ (While I make no pretense as to being able to actually speak Japanese, I did my best to channel Mifune Toshiro-dono, project from my hara and most importantly, not rush. Folks appeared to be duly impressed.) (BTW, this is pasted directly from the emails Ii-dono sent me. If Proboards messed up the code, I apologize!) |
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Post by Please Delete on Mar 28, 2011 12:29:42 GMT -5
Okay, the translation was mine with some comments from some of our Japanese members. In Japan, we went back and forth between "Uesto" and "Nishi" (Saioukoku just didn't seem right). Generally, I think we used "West"--after all, that is the name of the Kingdom. However, the great part about Japanese is you can use the kanji for "West" but then pronounce it "West". BTW, if you want to get the Japanese perspective, try asking here: groups.yahoo.com/group/Valdedraco/or... avalon.tsukaeru.jp/If you want, I'll take a look at your translation and I could try to send it around to our Japanese members. For what it is worth, we use "SCA" in most documents when translating, but I'll find what we used as the explanatory translation. I've been using 学会 for "Society" and I also used it for "AS" (so 学会５０年). I recommend looking, if you can, at period texts and see how they did some things, then capture the feel of it more than the literal translation. I believe you should start with something that basically just says "imperial decree" (meirei?). Also, at the end, just the date (maybe translate into Heisei vice Gregorian?) and then their names and titles should be sufficient. -Ii |
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Mar 28, 2011 16:28:14 GMT -5
I understand why you would just use SCA in the majority of documents, especially in what might be considered "Technical Documents" such as the marshal's handbook translation you're working on. I also like the change from 協会 to 学会. It was also my intention to use imperial eras in any dates I used (i.e.: Heisei). Your suggestion of using names at the end also seems like a good times.
I also appreciate the idea of using kanji for proper nouns and then reading them in engrish. Not only have I seen that in several japanese places but it seems a good compromise between using the kanji and letting people know what the deal is. Besides which, many people find it hard enough to read scrolls when they're in English.
On the matter of working with different Kingdom names I was discussing with my wife last night what the process might be. I wonder if it might in general be best to put a の between the kingdom identifier and then 王国. For example, when we go for the West Kingdom we come up with 西の王国. Or for Artemisia we take it as 蓬の王国. the main reason here is to prevent Midrealm from being mistaken for China.
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Post by Suzuki Ken'ichi on Mar 28, 2011 17:47:00 GMT -5
Do you actually have that many Japanese personas among people without pre-existing AoAs?
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Mar 29, 2011 2:05:58 GMT -5
1.) Yes
2.) I want to prep for the future
3.) Once I get this translation worked out it will be easier to translate other award texts
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Post by solveig on Mar 29, 2011 9:25:56 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! the main reason here is to prevent Midrealm from being mistaken for China. 1. Chūgoku is not necessarily the medieval name for China. 2. There is, as I recall, a Chūgoku region in Japan. 3. 王国 doesn't feel all that medieval to me. Was England ever commonly referred to as the Kingdom of England? I think England was and is much more typical. Why not just write 蓬国 and read it in English as "the kingdom of Artemisia" ? 4. Modern dates and very especially any direct reference to the SCA, Inc. really don't belong in scroll texts. |
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Post by Noriko on Mar 29, 2011 12:49:39 GMT -5
3. 王国 doesn't feel all that medieval to me. Was England ever commonly referred to as the Kingdom of England? I think England was and is much more typical. Why not just write 蓬国 and read it in English as "the kingdom of Artemisia" ? Oh, what would we call the other Kingdoms in Japanese? East, West and Middle are pretty much set. And only other one[1] I can think of off the top of my head whose name meaning is obvious is Trimaris which might be 三海国. But some of the other names- you might have to go way back and see why they were named what they were and what those names mean. Some might not even make sense- I'm in the Barony of Carolingia. It's because we're on the Charles River and Charles in Japanese... oy... At least my former university branch is easy- 沼沢区 (Borough of Fenmere-> Fenmere means "swampy swamp"-> Shoukatu-ku-> swamp district/ward) (; Sorry for the tangent- I think this is a fun exercise! [1]Well, Atlantia too but that would would be tough. My dictionary translates Atlantic into "Big West Ocean" (大西洋). |
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Post by Suzuki Ken'ichi on Mar 29, 2011 14:03:06 GMT -5
Atenveldt is "Sun World," and my barony, "Tir Ysgithr," is "The Land of the Tusk." I think a lot of people have absorbed through osmosis that they know what their kingdoms' names mean.
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