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Post by Kitagawa Natsutarou Tsubasa on Dec 4, 2011 0:35:01 GMT -5
Just recieved back a rejection on my name and want some help constructing something I am happy with.
The name submitted was Kitagawa Natsutarou Tsubasa.
Kitagawa was accepted as being ok, so there is no problems there.
Natsutarou was thrown back because there is no known precedent. I am infuriated at why heralds constantly say you can construct names that could have existed, then wont accept it because there is no exact precedent.
Tsubasa was iffy. There is documentation of the name being used in the 8th cen found in the book: Ambassadors from the islands of immortals by Zhenping Wang.
The context of the name is "Hakuri no Tsubasa"
The heralds want evidence that it was used as a nanori as its state in the above name makes it rather unclear whether or not it can be used as a nanori.
I'd much rather use a feudal style name then the clan no name style as it is not in the norm/period I want.
Additionaly, I am looking for help in deciding on a yobina. I am really after something roughlt sun/summer/southerly direction/fire + son in order to fit well with my heraldic device.
Any and all help is appreciated.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by Please Delete on Dec 4, 2011 23:10:28 GMT -5
As they say, "Kitagawa" is fine.
"Natsutarou" is problematic. We don't find "Natsu" in the front of any zokumyo (Natsutarou, Natsujirou, etc.). If you found that, you could then use it as a construction.
Alternatively, if you could show that "Fuyu", "Haru", or "Aki" are used in that position as "Winter", "Spring", or "Fall" then you could also suggest "Natsu" based on that pattern.
As it is, you can't just choose "Natsu" and put it in front of "Tarou". Did you have particular reason to believe that it should go together? Did you document it?
Hmmm... the problem with "Tsubasa" is its use as a nanori, as suggested. When you have things like "Hakuri no Tsubasa", "Tsubasa" may just be the person's position or title. An example is "Fujiwara Fubito"--While this is the 'name' he is known by today, "Fubito" was used to refer to a scribe. "Prince Shotoku" is another example--"Shotoku" is really just a rank, so he is referred to as the Prince of Shotoku rank. While there were others, no doubt, he is the most famous, and the name has stuck to him.
Do you have access to Solveig's book? If not, I'll see what I can find for you.
The meanings you mention would be easier to fit into the nanori than into the yobina. Without looking at specifics, and iirc, it strikes me that what we see in yobina are numbers, zodiac figures, and, later, references to titles. I think we sometimes see clan references, such as "GEN".
For the nanori, is there something that you particularly want?
FWIW, the information I'm finding seems to indicate "Tsubasa" is a name. It means "wing", today (I don't know if that was the original meaning), but I can find plenty of references to "Haguri no Tsubasa", and the info points to "Tsubasa" being his real name, according to my reading of things. So it could be a great Nara/Early Heian name.
-Ii
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Post by Kitagawa Natsutarou Tsubasa on Dec 5, 2011 3:23:21 GMT -5
Dear Ii,
Thanks for the promt reply.
Unfortunatly I do not have access to Solveig's book and I am yet to find someone with a copy over here in Australia.
As I have been gone by Tsubasa for a while now, I'd like to keep it as that is what people know me as.
The herals have said that there is no problem with Kitagawa no Tsubasa being submitted, but I'd much rather the yobina to keep me in period.
So what I am really asking is, if it can be documented that Tsubasa has been used as a name in the Nara/Heian, is it possible to translate that forward into the Sengoku as a yobina, or preferably a nanori.
As to natsutarou, there was a bit of ignorance in name construction I believe between my herald and I. Here is what we submitted;
"Natsutarou - Constructed yobina from Natsu (Summer) and tarou (First
Son). NCMJ has many yobina ending in Tarou (p. 211) including Kentarou
(Build + First Son) in 1600, Yatarou (Nostalgic + First Son) in 1438 and
Yo'ichitarou (Team Up + One + First Son) in 1138. The kanji Natsu (p.
127) is only found in nanori, not yobinas, but we believe this is still
an appropriate construction. Examples of natsu in names include
Moro'natsu and Sane'natsu in 1392 and Yoshi'natsu in 1572.
Again, Natsutarou is a modern given name in Japan which indicates that
this reading and combination of kanji is at least consistent with modern
onomastic rules."
As to Tsubasa being used as a nanori, here is what we submitted;
"Tsubasa (翼) - Nanori using the kanji Wing. While Tsubasa is not an
attested name in NCMJ, it is a modern given name in Japan.
Similar anatomical kanji are found in NCMJ, such as Tail (p. 176), found
in surnames dated to 1183, 1332, 1568 and 1572, Eye found in a nanori in
1593 (and other names) and also Feather (feminine nanori 784 and
surnames in 1575 and 1600) and Claw (surname 1183).
Single kanji masculine nanori are also attested in NCMJ such as Hikaru
(Bright), Hitoshi (Rank/Level) in 1600, Kisoi (Emulate/Compete) in 1234,
Kotau (Answer/Reply) in 1332, Makoto in 1600 (Faith/Belief). While these
are uncommon, they are all three syllable readings of a single kanji,
consistent with Tsubasa."
Sorry for my ignorance on these matters.
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