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Post by echigonoryu on Jan 26, 2012 10:26:36 GMT -5
Hello everyone! I'm doing research on the Sengoku era but found that there are a few questions I just can't manage to find the answers to. You'll have my eternal gratitude if you can help with any of them (I think a few more might pop up as I go along).
1. Did they use the honorifics -san and -sama back then (interested in the year 1978 in particular), and was the use similar to that of present day?
2. Would a relatively high-ranking samurai (who has a close bond with his daimyo) have been familiar with mirrors?
3. If a samurai was practising his swordsmanship in front of his home, would he be wearing a yukata or a kimono and hakama? And would he be barefoot?
Many thanks in advance!
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jan 26, 2012 13:09:10 GMT -5
Why do your questions make me think you're writing fiction?  There is a nice article on honorifics and modes of address at www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/address.htmlMirrors existed. They were made of highly polished bronze, in most cases. Yukata is for going to the baths or lounging about. Going around without hakama is "undressed." Nobody wore "kimono" until the 19th c, because the word wasn't used commonly to denote a particular garment before then. The term for the garment would be kosode (ko-so-deh). If he was on the veranda, barefoot. If he was on the ground, he'd likely be wearing either zori or waraji. |
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Post by echigonoryu on Jan 26, 2012 14:01:05 GMT -5
Haha, you've just uncovered my closely-guarded secret  I'm, indeed, writing a semi-historical novel (don't ask, lol!). And, perfectionst as I am, I really want to get the historical details spot-on. It was my interest in the Sengoku period that prompted the idea for the novel, but I still feel I haven't read enough on it (I think I always tend to feel that way, no matter how much reserach I've done). Many thanks for the link, I was reading another article on that website earlier, but hadn't come across the honorifics one yet. I did have a sneaky suspicion -san was a later-day honorific, so that article confirmed it. I know that bronze mirrors existed, but how familiar would a samurai be with them? Would it be only the higher-ranking bushi who had access to them? And, say, you were a samurai ranking just below the damiyo's generals, and were favoured by him, would you be living in a wooden house with a platform and paper screens? Sorry I ask so many questions, but it's hard to find such specific information (or maybe I'm just not very good at finding it  ). Once again, many thanks for your answer. If the novel ever (still a very big 'if' at the moment as I'm on the look for an agent for my first novel) gets published, I'll make sure I credit you for the help  |
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Post by solveig on Jan 26, 2012 16:34:16 GMT -5
If someone is practicing swordsmanship on the ground, then he is likely to be wearing waraji (straw sandals that are bound to the foot and ankle) or perhaps going barefoot. There were also a variety of boots that were worn by some high ranking individuals at some times. But, they are associated with archery and what naught. As already noted, your samurai would probably be wearing hakama just like modern kendoka do.
Estates did not have front yards. Rather they tended to have courtyards.
-dono is probably the most useful of the available honorifics for you. -sama starts to make an appearance and -san is definitely out.
As already mentioned, mirrors were made out of polished metal. Regardless, your high-ranking samurai would know what a mirror is. His wife would probably have one. Mirrors were generally round with possibly a rectangular handle and were made of a single piece of metal.
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Post by echigonoryu on Jan 26, 2012 17:04:38 GMT -5
Many, many thanks Okay, another question that sprung up on me - I think I've solved it, but I'm not entirely sure. Kenshin's Kasugayama Castle was situated near what was the cities of Takada and Naoetsu, is that right? Or, rather, what I'm asking is, were they called that way back in his time? I can't find any older names quoted. Oh, and one moer thing - if, say Kenshin wanted to show his appreciation of one of his retainers, would it be plausible that he would give him the name Nakatora (Naka - friendship + the -tora from his real name, Kagetora)? |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jan 26, 2012 18:01:59 GMT -5
Haha, you've just uncovered my closely-guarded secret It's the way you worded your question as well as the sort of questions you asked.  |
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Post by echigonoryu on Jan 26, 2012 18:07:01 GMT -5
Haha, you've just uncovered my closely-guarded secret It's the way you worded your question as well as the sort of questions you asked. I know - subtlety has never been my strong point ;D |
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Post by echigonoryu on Jan 27, 2012 11:44:11 GMT -5
Okay, I'm really sorry for double-posting, but I need some more help :/ It's vital for me to know whether if someone from the Sengoku peroid was told 'Shōrai-teki' they would understand it. Also, would a modern-day Japanese be able to understand, if he was talking to a Sengoku-era samurai (I know, it sounds crazy, but there's logic behind the madness, lol!)? Those are very vital points for me, so I'll be forever grateful for any help with them!
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Post by solveig on Jan 29, 2012 17:33:45 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! As it happens, there are sufficient "dialect" differences without even including Okinawa into the mix that modern Japanese will not necessarily understand each other when talking on the telephone. That said, late Muromachi Japanese can be fairly understandable to modern Japanese much as Shakespear can be fairly understandable to modern English speakers. At least that is my impression. Even so, there are published translations of early 17c Japanese into modern Japanese. So, there are enough differences to support translations.
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Post by solveig on Jan 29, 2012 17:51:30 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Oh, and one moer thing - if, say Kenshin wanted to show his appreciation of one of his retainers, would it be plausible that he would give him the name Nakatora (Naka - friendship + the -tora from his real name, Kagetora)? It would be plausible for him to pass on a tsuuji (shared character) in a name given to a retainer. We see a fair amount of this. However, I very much doubt the construction of Nakatora. What kanji is meaning "friend"? Is 仲 intended? Regardless, you should think of making up the name in question as a free-standing name. The relationship is expressed by the shared character. You can see this phenomenon in the tsuuji 景 "kage" shared with his father Tamekage 為景. Incidentally, the suggested tsuuji 虎 does not have to occupy the same position in nanori names. So for example, you might as well consider 虎仲 Toranaka as Nakatora 仲虎. Also I am concerned about the use of the phrase "real name" in the posting. Japanese can be rather fluid in their use of names. |
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Post by echigonoryu on Jan 29, 2012 20:36:10 GMT -5
Greetings back, solveig! And thank you EVER so much for the help!! I can't express how grateful I am, as obviously some of my questions are too specific to be easily researched. I did think that just as Shakespeare is more or less understandable to a modern English person, there must be a similar analogy in Japanese. Obviously it won't be 100%, far from that, but it would be enough for simple communication, wouldn't it? And the other thing - do you have any idea if a Sengoku samurai was shown the several variations of kanji symbols which a standard translator shows for 'distant future' they would understand the meaning at least to certain extent? That's a very vital point for me. As for Nakatora, yes, that was the kanji intended. What is it that you doubt in the construction? Is it that you think he wouldn't have chosen a kanji with the particular meaning of "friendship"? And I know it doesn't have to be in the same position, I just liked the sound of it in the end better than in the beginning, it makes the name firmer, at least in my perception. Purely on auditory level, that is. Would Torayori, Toramori ("mori" as in "guard") or - I like that best of the three - Yoshitora (as in "good") be better than Nakatora? My character's family name is Ashina, by the way, so I was trying to get the two to sound good together. Sorry about the phrasing, by "real name" I simply meant the name he got when he reached manhood I know he subsequently changed it to Masatora and Terutor,a before taking the name Kenshin Lastly - to my mortification, I just noticed I misspelt "more" in the post you quoted. *hangs head in shame* That's what happens when I type too fast and don't double-check before I post :/ |
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I'm, indeed, writing a semi-historical novel (don't ask, lol!). And, perfectionst as I am, I really want to get the historical details spot-on. It was my interest in the Sengoku period that prompted the idea for the novel, but I still feel I haven't read enough on it (I think I always tend to feel that way, no matter how much reserach I've done). Many thanks for the link, I was reading another article on that website earlier, but hadn't come across the honorifics one yet. I did have a sneaky suspicion -san was a later-day honorific, so that article confirmed it.
). Once again, many thanks for your answer. If the novel ever (still a very big 'if' at the moment as I'm on the look for an agent for my first novel) gets published, I'll make sure I credit you for the help 
