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Post by steamboat28 on Jun 3, 2012 13:02:20 GMT -5
Greetings, everyone. Please forgive me if I step on convention, or stumble conversationally; I'm rather new here, and I mean no disrespect. I'm simply undertaking my first attempt at wafuku, and have a few questions. Kosode: I've seen from various sources that the sode should be a full panel, and the main source I'm using for reference states it should be a full width panel x 15". That would give me a square, but the sample pattern farther down suggests it's doubled, giving a rectangle of panel x 30". Which way do I orient that? So that the length is equal to a panel's width, I'm assuming? Hakama: I have seen about ten billion different patterns and ideas for hakama, but I have yet to figure out how to pleat them properly (i.e., pleat depth, spacing, etc.) All I know is that most patterns show 2, and that period hakama seem to have been pleated inward, unlike their modern martial-arts counterpart. Am I missing something, or is it just whatever works? Hitatare: I've seen a wonderful pattern or two for yoroi hitatare, but I've not seen the non-armor-y-sort in pattern form. Is it built like a kosode with bigger sleeves? And how do I figure out all the super-pretty contrasting whatchama-knot-stuff? (And what's that stuff called?) I apologize if these are things I could find elsewhere; liberal use of search features on many of the websites I've scoured for information haven't helped yet, so if I haven't seen them it's because I overlooked it by looking too hard.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 3, 2012 18:56:47 GMT -5
Greetings, everyone. Kosode: I've seen from various sources that the sode should be a full panel, and the main source I'm using for reference states it should be a full width panel x 15". That would give me a square, but the sample pattern farther down suggests it's doubled, giving a rectangle of panel x 30". Which way do I orient that? So that the length is equal to a panel's width, I'm assuming? There's going to be a fold at the top of the shoulder so the sode needs to be double its finished length from top to bottom. The drop from shoulder to bottom of sleeve will be 15" less seam allowance. (If you're tall, you can make it longer.) Does that make sense? Hakama: I have seen about ten billion different patterns and ideas for hakama, but I have yet to figure out how to pleat them properly (i.e., pleat depth, spacing, etc.) All I know is that most patterns show 2, and that period hakama seem to have been pleated inward, unlike their modern martial-arts counterpart. [/quote] Period hakama usually have two in front/ one in the rear per leg. Pleats should be symmetrical, using the crotch seam as your center. Measure the distance of the front belt loops on your favorite jeans, that'll give you a ballpark width for the front of your hakama. www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/patterns/hakama1.PDF?46,19 shows the pleat arrangement as seen from above, which may help you visualize it. Hitatare: I've seen a wonderful pattern or two for yoroi hitatare, but I've not seen the non-armor-y-sort in pattern form. [/quote] You need to join the sca-jml Yahoo Group if not already a member as there are more pattern variants there: f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cOzLT_v2_gZNqqXeXiQYuiI38iR2m2ELEzAfwFkJ39HE3H3oJG5bh_bpatIfITKlLX2AIWKeydJLux9lM_pG/Garb%20files/Hitatare-types.PDFKosode are double breasted, hitatare are not, Hitatare have no side seams and the sleeves are wide and open unlike kosode. Munahimo are the front ties, sodetsuyu are the "figure 8" ones that are supposed to reinforce seams. If you don't do kumihimo, you can fake them with round braided cord fairly easily. I know I posted a diagram to this forum ages ago, but I can't remember where. In the meantime, here's a detail photo: www.yusoku.com/image/heian_m/hitatare/hitatare6b.jpg[/img]And a schematic of how to lay them down to be stitched onto the fabric.
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Post by Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa on Jun 3, 2012 19:09:47 GMT -5
Saionji-hime beat me to it... Here's (half of) the one I just finished laid out flat: Green hitatare with gold stripe, finished by tomlapille, on Flickr When I built this, I used the pattern that Saionji-sensei linked to, but I replaced the panel width of 18"/20" with my own correct panel width (15"). It turned out to tie right up to my sleeves when I use the sleeve cords. I would recommend just building the thing out of panels of your correct width, and use half-panels for the last bit on the edges. The sleeves are only attached a little bit, as you can see in the pictures. I went 10" down on each side with the attachment, and reinforced the hell out of it so it wouldn't rip.
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Post by steamboat28 on Jun 4, 2012 3:06:11 GMT -5
Thank you both so very much! Saionji-hime, I believe the reason I got confused on the sode issue is that the language of descriptions is sometimes easily confused. Am I correct in stating that I am to run the fold in the sode perpendicular to the length of my arm (leaving the shoulder-to-cuff at 1 panel width), rather than running perpendicular to the length of my arm (leaving the shoulder-to-cuff at ~15")? Nevermind. I figured it out by the placement of the curve on the sleeve. I feel really, really silly now. Ishida-dono, are you not also responsible for the lovely Lion Clan hitatare I've seen around these parts? That's the image that actually drew me to these forums in the first place. I'm a bit of a Crane man myself, but that's a glorious piece. Are the backs of the sleeves sewn up, as in some other garments, or are they left open, like the sides? I apologize for being inquisitive. One of these days, I'll stop rushing to SCAdians for all my historical A&S questions and just join.
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Post by Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa on Jun 4, 2012 10:12:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure I understand your question about the sleeves. The only attachment on the sleeves, though, is along the bottom. The outermost edge is left open just like it is on the side closer to the main body. And yes, that Lion clan hitatare is mine. I'm tickled that you found us through that image. Come to Gencon this summer and you might see it in person
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 4, 2012 11:10:18 GMT -5
Don't feel silly - not everyone can process written instructions. Everyone learns differently! If you look at the rear view of the daimon hitatare shown here, you can see that the backs of the sleeves are open. www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/6.htmIt's not obvious in this picture, but the hitatare has no side seams - it's open on the sides and is held in place by one's obi and hakama.
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Post by steamboat28 on Jun 5, 2012 7:21:01 GMT -5
So the shoulder seam is the only place the sleeve is attached to anything else, and the fold along the top of the hitatare is the only place the body is attached to itself? That sounds easy enough. It's worn under the hakama then, held in place like a kosode? I would've thought differently given its length. Is a second obi worn to hold the hitatare, then, or are it and the kosode bound by the same one?
Ishida-dono, I was searching for photos of L5R cosplay to get ideas--I'd never heard of it before the GenCon I attended in my early 20's--and stumbled across the photos. I tried to get the game to catch on here, but folks didn't like a card game to last that long, and very few people were interested in the tabletop game. Sad panda.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 5, 2012 10:41:07 GMT -5
If you're wearing kosode under a hitatare or kataginu, tie it closed with a himo (a strip of fabric). Bias tape works great for this, BTW). wodefordhall.com/iikataginuback.jpg shows the obi tied over a kataginu with the knot in the back - this will lie under your hakama, causing the rear pleats to pouf out the way they're supposed to.
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Post by Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa on Jun 5, 2012 13:32:45 GMT -5
I do it a little differently than Saionji-hime said, but I don't know if I'm doing it right or wrong. Here's my process: - Put on outermost kosode.
- Secure with obi.
- Put hitatare over shoulders and arms into sleeves.
- Step into hakama.
- Adjust front hitatare panels the way I want.
- Pull up front of hakama, tie in back below obi knot.
- Adjust back of hitatare the way I want.
- Pull up back of hakama, tie in front.
This way, the hitatare is only held by the hakama. This may be wrong, but it's what I've been doing. I'll try the other way to see if it's any more stable the next time I wear mine. You may have an easier time figuring this out if you wear a kataginu kamishimo instead of a hitatare kamishimo--the process is exactly the same, but with a hitatare there are gigantic sleeves that get in the way.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 5, 2012 15:54:04 GMT -5
I do it a little differently than Saionji-hime said, but I don't know if I'm doing it right or wrong. The photo I posted was courtesy of Ii Saburo Katsumori. Hopefully he'll chime in here.
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Post by steamboat28 on Jun 6, 2012 8:46:18 GMT -5
I thank you both for your input, it is most informative. I am curious to see if Ii-dono has any suggestions, as well. Well, with the caveats that the lighting in this entire house is terrible, and that I'm not overly-concerned about period accuracy (though if I get close by accident, I'll be pleased), this is what I'm working with: ^The color in this pic is dark, but nearly spot-on; it's a bit more toward the cream side of 'natural,' and is a bit brighter than it seems in this photograph. I really liked the stripes, and I thought it would be good for a kosode. I've never tinkered with patterns before, but I'm hoping that since these garments are made of rectangular panels, and both these fabrics have a linear pattern, that it won't be terribly difficult. ^This is what I'm considering for the hitatare kamishimo. This photograph drained all the life out of the deep burgundy and bright gold pattern. The golden-diamond side is more matte than the side shown on the left. It's probably completely ridiculous looking, but I thought it was really pretty, and I got it for suuuuuuuper cheap.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2012 9:57:57 GMT -5
The color in this pic is dark, but nearly spot-on; it's a bit more toward the cream side of 'natural,' and is a bit brighter than it seems in this photograph. I really liked the stripes, and I thought it would be good for a kosode. I agree. I think that will make a beautiful kosode. If it's your first kosode, though, I recommend starting with plain white instead. Just go get some cotton muslin and start with that. It will help you work out the pattern that fits you best without risking your nicer fabric, and a white layer always looks good under anything, even under another kosode. I think it looks good, and pretty well Japanese, too. The "overlapping circles" side (the shinier side) is the "right" (outer) side, in my opinion. This will make a very dressy kamishimo. These two fabrics will look great together.
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Post by Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa on Jun 6, 2012 10:28:19 GMT -5
I wish I had that bottom fabric! That will be gorgeous.
Medieval Japanese aesthetics were pretty different than what we have now. Big, bold, and showy things are expected.
I agree with Ishiyama-dono's recommendation that you make a white kosode first. In the long run, you'll want the white one anyway. From what I have seen in art, the minimum number of kosode worn under a hitatare kamishimo is two--one white or light-colored underlayer, a nicer overlayer, and then the overgarment.
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Post by steamboat28 on Jun 6, 2012 10:38:05 GMT -5
Arigato, Ishiyama-dono! I hope they look as well together in reality as they did on the shelf. You do, however, have me a bit worried about attempting a kosode now. If I scrap another project, I may have enough fabric to attempt a very short kosode-like garment. I bought a couple of yards the other day for a yardwork turban; it may be enough to get a waist-length kosode with full-sized sleeves. I won't be able to start a separate one at the moment, though. I've been (mostly) unemployed for quite a while, and the fabric for the final outfit was purchased by a friend in payment for sewing services rendered to him earlier in the year. To be fair, I'm much more concerned with fouling up the hakama, and trying to make sure I get the hitatare's dimensions correct. Though it averaged $2.50 a yard, I'd still hate to screw up gorgeous material. Ishida-dono, my concern that the bottom fabric might look ridiculous was mostly because I was afraid it would look too "busy", since the pattern is so small. However, after hearing how much the two of you like it, I'm sure it will be just fine.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 6, 2012 11:13:15 GMT -5
I don't know what your sewing skills are like, but you might consider doing a mock up first if you're unsure of how things should go together. Collars, hakama pleats and crotch gussets are not difficult, but they can throw a novice sewer through a loop.
If you have to, you could do your mock-up in miniature.
The fabrics you chose are nice, BTW. I highly recommend getting your hands on a copy of Seiroku Noma's Japanese Costume and Textile Arts (out of print, but fairly easy to find used copies of). It's a great resource for learning what period textiles should look like.
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