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Mon
Sept 10, 2012 10:59:57 GMT -5
Post by Hayashi Yuki on Sept 10, 2012 10:59:57 GMT -5
How did you figure out your family crest for your persona? I have an idea of what I want mine to look like, but I don't even know how the Japanese go about making them. Here is what I believe would work for my persona. I found that one of the Hayashi family mon is three diamonds overlapping to represent a forest. So I think that my variation would work.
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Mon
Sept 10, 2012 14:15:11 GMT -5
Post by roninpenguin on Sept 10, 2012 14:15:11 GMT -5
In order to pass this in the SCA you need to be able to describe it using western heraldic terms. You may have a hard time making a description for your circles, but I'm sure someone with more heraldic knowledge then me can fill you in on more details.
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Mon
Sept 10, 2012 17:28:57 GMT -5
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Sept 10, 2012 17:28:57 GMT -5
www.geocities.ws/meradudd/Mons/Mons.html explains a bit about mon and how one might design one for SCA use. One thing you do need to know is that European heraldic rules specify that you can't put color on color or metal on metal. "Color" refers to red, blue, green, black and purple, "metal" to gold (yellow) and silver (white). Teal on black will not pass. Something you need to know about Japanese heraldry is that if you have multiple objects in your mon, it all needs to be the same object. Three balls or three rings, but not one ball and two rings. www.otomiya.com/kamon/index.htm needs to be run through Google Translate, but it's got some nice examples of all sorts of mon.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Mon
Sept 10, 2012 19:52:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 19:52:29 GMT -5
Here is what I believe would work for my persona. I found that one of the Hayashi family mon is three diamonds overlapping to represent a forest. So I think that my variation would work. I'm told that the outer ring surrounding a mon is a late (possibly non-)period development. I say lose it and concentrate on the field color and the main circles. This will give you more flexibility for display anyway. One possibility the heralds will try to discuss with you is to go for a fieldless badge. You'd basically just be registering the arrangement of circles. If you just always choose to portray it on a blue background, that's what they call an artistic choice. You should resist this idea. You really want your primary symbol to be registered as arms.
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Mon
Sept 10, 2012 22:07:59 GMT -5
Post by roninpenguin on Sept 10, 2012 22:07:59 GMT -5
I thought that you couldn't have a badge until you first submitted a device, was I informed incorrectly?
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Mon
Sept 11, 2012 3:52:18 GMT -5
Post by Hayashi Yuki on Sept 11, 2012 3:52:18 GMT -5
It's not teal! >.< Stupid thing for some reason it didn't transfer to HTML right. It is black on white.
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Mon
Sept 11, 2012 4:05:55 GMT -5
Post by Hayashi Yuki on Sept 11, 2012 4:05:55 GMT -5
I thought that you couldn't have a badge until you first submitted a device, was I informed incorrectly? Is there a problem with thinking ahead?
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Mon
Sept 11, 2012 4:33:15 GMT -5
Post by Hayashi Yuki on Sept 11, 2012 4:33:15 GMT -5
"Mon are most often (but not required to be) surrounded by an enclosure, which is usually an annulet."
And because I was told it was "too modern" I took away the annulet. God damnit. -_- This is what I get for listening to people online instead of talking with an actual herald.
Saionji-dono thank you very much for coming through with an actual recourse. The first site is exactly what I needed.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Mon
Sept 11, 2012 7:26:27 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 7:26:27 GMT -5
I thought that you couldn't have a badge until you first submitted a device, was I informed incorrectly? Well, I have a registered fieldless badge and no registered device, so unless that's part of the new rules I guess you were misinformed. Personally, I don't recommend submitting a badge until you have a registered device because it has caused me some problems. And because I was told it was "too modern" I took away the annulet. I've heard this "too modern" story from multiple people who have tried to register Japanese devices. If you can document it as period, how can it be too modern? In my experience, consulting heralds work very hard to help you construct a submission that has the greatest chance of acceptance, and I won't tell you to not listen to their recommendations, but that is not the same thing as being right. Exercise patience. Keep working on the design until you have something you're really comfortable with that the consulting heralds don't have too many objections to. If you have something that you really want, and can document it sufficiently, submit it, wait for the rejection, then appeal. This might take a year, but if it results in you having a device you're happy with then it will be worth it.
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Mon
Sept 11, 2012 16:46:12 GMT -5
Post by solveig on Sept 11, 2012 16:46:12 GMT -5
Noble Cousins!
Greetings from Solveig! Surrounding rings do show up in some early kamon, but they are comparatively rare in early kamon especially in comparison to more recent kamon. One problem with the rings is that they add complexity to the device. Generally speaking, you are more likely to find acceptance for a device with a "low complexity count" provided of course that it does not conflict with existing devices. (Ref. Daibukan 大武鑑 by Hashimoto Hiroshi)
A brief survey of battlefield paintings will show that the Japanese also had high contrast designs. This is what the College of Arms tincture rules are about. You will also notice that the Japanese were using white, black, blue, and red pretty extensively.
One thing that happens in the Society is that people have a tendency to overlearn new stuff. For a while people were trying to eliminate illumination from scrolls, because a lot of early scrolls did not have illumination. People turned this into no scrolls had illumination which is false. Illumination shows up fairly often in late period scrolls.
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Mon
Sept 12, 2012 0:58:47 GMT -5
Post by Hayashi Yuki on Sept 12, 2012 0:58:47 GMT -5
Thank you everyone, and I apologize for my foul mood earlier. Do forgive me, I have been trying very hard for the past few weeks to work everything out in my head. Thank you for having patience in dealing with me. I have thought it through, and what I would like to see as my mon is three cedar (sugi) trees, the middle tree being the largest, and staggered a bit higher then the two on either side. I have yet to see this exact mon depicted, so I may be safe in using it. Whether or not I will add some sort of enclosure is still up in the air. www.asgy.co.jp/anglais/classify/plants/plants13.html
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Mon
Sept 13, 2012 7:24:09 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2012 7:24:09 GMT -5
Thank you everyone, and I apologize for my foul mood earlier. Do forgive me, I have been trying very hard for the past few weeks to work everything out in my head. Thank you for having patience in dealing with me. I think everybody here knows how stressful it can be preparing your information to submit to any kind bureaucracy, and the SCA College of Heralds being a volunteer bureaucracy that works mostly in its members spare time can be be especially frustrating. Thank you for taking us seriously, even when it's not something you want to hear. With or without the enclosure, this is a totally classy and attractive mon. A consulting herald can pretty easily help you find the proper wording to describe it and search for any conflict.
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Mon
Sept 13, 2012 16:39:16 GMT -5
Post by roninpenguin on Sept 13, 2012 16:39:16 GMT -5
I thought that you couldn't have a badge until you first submitted a device, was I informed incorrectly? Is there a problem with thinking ahead? Nothing wrong with planning ahead, I was just checking because sometimes you hear things so many times passed down the info gets warped so it is always good to clarify. That is one of the cool things about doing Japanese is that our devices tend to translate easily into badges.
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Mon
Sept 13, 2012 17:22:51 GMT -5
Post by solveig on Sept 13, 2012 17:22:51 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! Because the cedar trees are detached from each other, you will need to specify a background color as well as a color for the trees. Depending on exactly what you send in, the College of Arms may complain that the center tree is not elevated high enough above the other trees. I suggest that you elevate it rather more obviously if this is important to you. Otherwise leave it on the same level with the other trees when you turn it in. Please note that the heights of all three trees are the same. You should not be aiming to make one of the trees bigger than the others. Doing so generally speaking departs from the Japanese aesthetic and is likely to cause problems with the College of Arms as well as the other trees will then get called "secondaries" and people are likely to complain about them.
A final note. Your design is somewhat similar to the arms of Drachenwald. I'm not sure whether this will cause problems or not. I recommend that you not pick yellow for the background.
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Mon
Sept 13, 2012 17:57:18 GMT -5
Post by Hayashi Yuki on Sept 13, 2012 17:57:18 GMT -5
Here is what I have been told by a herald after describing to him what I hope to achieve. I used the same exact sentence to him that I did here, a complete copy pasta. "Kamons are usually fieldless badges, and the charge is usually argent (white/silver). For those not in the know, that is a charge (item) colored white/silver on a colorless background. The trick with kamon is that in order to register it with the College of Heralds its blazon (description) has to be in European heraldic terms. The other main issue is, that if the kamon is one item inside another (Ex: Trees inside a circle) the items inside have to be "conjoined to" (touching) the outside item. In this case the blazon would be: "Fieldless, within, and conjoined to an annulet, three trees fesswise argent. In plain English: inside, and touching a circle, three trees in a row from left to right, white. - In the case of you wanting the middle tree larger than the rest, that could be considered an artistic interpretation, and you could display it that way if you want, as long as it meets the basic blazon." So I can do it I just have to word it with the proper jargon, and maybe add the enclosure. What I am trying to avoid more then anything is copying an existing kamon. That to me would be a huge insult. I am fine with people complaining. They complain that I chose a Japanese persona instead of a European one, adding this in the mix is nothing. In fact I'd rather exasperate members of the SCA then insult a family in Japan. Similar mon, www.otomiya.com/kamon/plant/sugi.htm
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