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Post by Momotaro Masato on Sept 13, 2012 23:43:42 GMT -5
I'm having a hard time finding anything too informative on anything like a japanese tournament out arms outside of the edo period. I know there are many out there skilled at scouring for authentic info on the web. Care to give me a hand?
I'm having a hard time finding anything revolving around armoured opponents doing anything comparable to what you'd see in European style tournaments.
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Post by roninpenguin on Sept 14, 2012 1:25:57 GMT -5
As far as I know there were no real armored tournaments the way we know them during our era of study.
Sumo was probably the biggest tournament style that was widely used in period, but even that wasn't truly formalized until Edo as the Shogunate looked for ways to redirect the fighting class away from armed conflict with each other as well as the established regime. It is really interesting to see how the focus of fighting in Japan moved from armored melee combat to individual duels in less than a generation.
If you are looking for an idea to use for a Japanese style tournament for SCA besides the usual two handed sword or spear I do have a couple of suggestions.
One would be a tourney with a dash of Sumo rules. Create a 15 foot diameter circle, the first one who either looses their life, feet, or steps out looses the round. Sumo was originally done to test two warriors Jujitsu skills in armor so I have read that some of the original tournaments were armored. Most of the examples that I read that from were internet with bibliographies that I never followed up on though, so how reliable it is I don't know. But anyway applying SCA combat to Sumo rules I feel lives up to the ideals of Sumo.
The other is a tournament that we used to do back in the day (actually it was before I had a Japanese persona as well). To keep armies from passing bridges it was common to tear planks out of the bridge to make the crossing more treacherous. Then if a warrior wanted to prove himself he could walk out on the frame work and take all comers. We simulated this by taking boards and spacing 4 or 5 of them out so you could stand on two if you stretched but were better off standing on one, then the fighters would enter on either side, if they touched ground between the boards they were out. It was fun watching guys try and keep their balance and save themselves by hopping from board to board.
Anyway, those are my suggestions. I may be mistaken about armored tournaments (god knows it wouldn't be the first time) but I still like my ideas gosh darn it. ;D
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Post by Momotaro Masato on Sept 14, 2012 18:44:01 GMT -5
That's where the "Creative" part of our society comes in. If it's fun enough, people won't break out their period swastikas. I LOVE the idea of doing an armoured grappling tournament. It'd be fun to learn the roots of jiujitsu. My only concern would be the damage to fingers should they get caught between any pieces of armor. ...but oh man... Just the idea of doing it is thrilling. Thanks for the input, yagyu-dono.
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Post by roninpenguin on Sept 14, 2012 20:41:59 GMT -5
Well you won't be able to use "Grappling" per say, but fighters could use weapons to maneuver their opponent. Using your hands to grasp your opponents armor is against the rules unfortunately. The trick is to push, pull or leverage with your weapon against their weapon/shield in such a way you push them out.
I thought of it when fighting a Shieldman with my two handed sword and was pushing him all over the tourney field because he needed to retreat to free his shield from my press. I thought to myself "If this was Sumo he would be so out of ring" and thus the idea was born.
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Post by Please Delete on Sept 15, 2012 10:27:06 GMT -5
I think this will possibly run into problems with the marshallate in some areas *if* you are found to be deliberately pushing your opponent--as long as you remain on their shield, etc., and are pushing only a bit , or just following, it is probably okay. What worries me is the idea of someone being forcibly pushed or knocked back such that they fall or trip. Not saying you shouldn't do it, but just a consideration that should be taken into consideration; if someone is backing up quickly while in a press it could be easy to twist an ankle, etc.
That said, I like the general rules and the shape. I think it definitely hearkens back to Japanese tradition.
Something to consider: Tournaments were not necessarily done in our period of study, that I know of, but there are definitely stories of duels. Duels could be lethal or non-lethal, and from the stories I've read (admittedly limited), non-lethal duels appear to have been judged primarily by the participants--not unlike what we do in the SCA. That could be an avenue to set up such a tournament. It would likewise be a plausible excuse for any rules modifications that you want to make. I like the idea of limiting the weapons. I would recommend limiting it to traditional Japanese weapons, and only allow true edge strikes from bladed weapons (yes, I know there are chokuto--even tachi--with at least a part of false edge sharpened, but I think excluding them would be good in this instance). Whether or not to allow clubs (e.g. tetsubo), would be an interesting twist.
FWIW, I've seen grappling done outside of the SCA. It can be a lot of fun, but depends greatly on the people involved and thinking through things, such as do you allow poleyns with wings jutting out that could catch someone in the back of the leg during the grappling.
-Ii
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Post by roninpenguin on Sept 16, 2012 0:21:15 GMT -5
I was talking to a friend about the Sumo tourney idea I had and he reminded me of tournaments that they used to have called "Rug" tourneys. They used to lay out a big throw rug (Like 10x20) and it was pretty close to the Sumo rules except you could go down your your knees.
I think that sets a good precedent for a Sumo tourney.
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Post by Uryuu Ujishige on Sept 24, 2012 9:59:27 GMT -5
Many years ago, in our barony, just for fun we did a tag team great axe tourney. Yeah, based on wrasslin, just, like it sounds. About a 20 X 20 square, lined on the ground. Standard SCA rules apply. If you left the "ring" you had a 10 count to get back in. If you got legged, and could manage to tag out (which had to occur at "your" corner), your partner replaced you and you got out. If you got tagged to go back in the ring, you had full use of your legs. Lots of bravado, and trash talk. No chairs or tables though. Extreme amouts of fun.
I like the basic ideas. The dueling scenario appeals to me greatly, maybe with counted blows. We do something similar here when trying to work on kenjutsu and naginata technique and form. Fight to the first good cut. Study and discuss what happened, and maybe how to improve, then start again. It allows for good training without going to knees and such getting in the way.
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Post by kusennin on Jan 23, 2013 13:50:11 GMT -5
Most koryu like jujutsu was designed for fighting an armored opponent. In fact anyone who studies a traditional budo style will learn a massive amount from trying their techniques in and against an armored opponent. I think a "demo" or training at least would be okay. But like what has already been said there would be no way to do it in regular sca combat. Though perhaps we could get special permission to try it as it would be an example of truly historical use of combat.
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Post by Uryuu Ujishige on May 16, 2013 15:52:46 GMT -5
I was re-reading this thread and a thought occured to me, in regards to things like grappling and such. More and more I am seeing advertisements for the wars and such where "The Deed" is being done. There is currently an effort here in Gleann Abahann to have a "Viking Deed" at BAM in November. I will be the first to admit that I do not know much having to with the details of the rules concerning "The Deed" other than generalities. Those generalities basicly being that the armor kits and weapons must conform to a certain period, there is supposed to be a resonable attempt at using period fighting techniques, and a more period style of tournament is done, which also seems to include a suspension of some of the rules concerning some techiques that are not allowed in regular SCA combat. I may be incorrect in some, or all of this. If so, please disregard. However, if not, it seems that the appoval within the SCA for conducting these deeds at SCA events could be a precidence, and a basis, for a "Japanese Deed" of sorts, where some of the techniques that have been discussed in this thread might be allowed on a limited/ experimental basis.
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Post by solveig on May 16, 2013 19:00:22 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! My understanding is that a "deed of arms" generally imposes additional rules rather than waiving rules.
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Post by solveig on May 16, 2013 19:20:56 GMT -5
Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I have been wanting to organize a sumo event for years now. I have a sumo handout at: www.demoivre.org/Manuscripts/sumo.pdf The rules are based on the rules used by the Japanese Schoolboy Sumo Association. |
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Post by Please Delete on May 17, 2013 5:37:25 GMT -5
I concur with Solveig: You can add more restrictive rules to the tourney, but you can't relax rules just because it is a "deed". Generally speaking you can:
* Specify specific armor or weapon types (as long as they conform to the rules of the Kingdom and Society where you are fighting)
* Specify different victory conditions: you can't change the calibration of a "good" blow, but you could do a counted blows tournament, or possibly even make people invincible to certain blows (e.g. leg shots aren't valid/are "killing" blows), leaving the arena is "dead", etc.
* Things that are specifically disallowed in the rules cannot be allowed: e.g. flails (no kusarigama), grappling, etc.
Does that help?
For a Japanese "deed", I would think that you would organize it into "teams"--maybe red and white?
You could run a challenge tournament. One side sends out 1 or more people and they issue a challenge, which is answered by someone on the other side (who has to throw out their own challenge), and they fight. Once they are finished, they go off and have to wait until everyone has fought before coming back on the field.
Victory conditions can be manyfold: There is the basic of how many bouts each side wins, but you could give some kind of bonus for how difficult the fight is made, or how specific challenges are made (possibly even if they make a boast and then back it up). There is also strategy, because who gets sent out against whom? You could send a newbie out against a Duke if you want to just give up the point, saving your better fighters for later. You could send one fighter at a time to rack up "wins", or send out multiple fighters to get through the round more quickly. It would need more thought, but this is making me think of a way to run a rapier tournament, now. Hmmm....
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