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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 1, 2017 0:30:06 GMT -5
Ah ha! As you mentioned before, the kuge designs are not presented in the Daibukan so I'll have to check out some other sources like the aforementioned Dower. More books! More time! More research! Thank you again for your help in clarification. It has been some time since I last posted on my journey, and truth be told I took a break from it as life sometimes makes you take on alternate paths. But I'm back in business as they say and have been ramping up my reading, writing, and re-testing my knowledge. I ended up getting The Elements of Japanese Design by John Dower. It is quite a lovely book and I have spent many hours flipping back and forth between the designs. To come full circle, it describes the Bellflower (kikyo) on page 48, [...] "As a crest, it first appears to have been adopted among the warriors around the thirteenth century, primarily because of its beauty." This places the device squarely in Kamakura timeline and just out of (my) Heian recreation reach. As it stands, I do enjoy the classic design of the Gentian (rindo) flower pictured above in blue. However, two things concern me: 1) Dower describes the charge on page 56, [...] As a crest, it represents a good example of the type of pattern which became popular in the Heian period for purely decorative purposes, and then later was adopted as a formal family crest." and 2) I thought someone in the East has this design already or one of the myriad of similar designs that would not pass the 1 km rule or even the 50 m rule of the Heralds (see bamboo mon above). Thoughts? Anyhow, a more recent thought has occurred to me: If my surname is Kagami, should I not use that family's chosen mon (or a small adaptation therein)? What are your thoughts on this? In looking through Dower's book, there is no mention of the Kagami surname and my online searches have not proven fruitful (in fact the first hit for "加賀美 surname mon" is this very board! haha!). Do you recommend any additional sources? Does the Daibukan list the Kagami name?
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Post by solveig on Apr 3, 2017 3:05:38 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Sólveig! As you mentioned before, the kuge designs are not presented in the DaibukanThat is correct. Neither Daibukan, Oumajirushi, nor Shumonshokumon really cover kuge kamon even though the kuge were the first to use them. I am pretty sure that Dower is the best book available in English. It has rather nice notes about the history of various designs. The design on the left is indeed the classic design you mentioned. The design on the right claims to be bamboo, but it does not look all that much like the bamboo designs that I recall. I suppose that those are bamboo leaves, but as I recall the bamboo motif more commonly uses the segmented stalks. Check out bamboo in Dower. Bamboo makes it into Japanese kamon at least by the end of the nineteenth century.Do not worry about what English word Dower calls kamon. The important thing is that kamon are Japanese armory. Please use the word "kamon" in any dealings with the College of Arms. This is the word most typically used in Japan. The College of Arms will also accept "mon", but that has so many homonyms in Japanese that I am trying to discourage its use. Also, Americans pronounce the word incorrectly. It should be pronounced "moan" not "mawn". Regardless, kamon is pronounced caw-moan. (Think of dyspeptic crows.) Do you know the name of the person or have a picture of what they are using? It is fairly easy to avoid conflict with a single piece of armory. All you have to do has have your charges and backgrounds be different colors than the corresponding colors in the existing armory and you are good to go.I think that using some version of their design is an excellent idea. The 加賀美 do not appear to have been around a whole lot, but they were active ca. 1171. They also appear to be a cadet family of the Minamoto. 源 義清 Minamoto no Yoshikiyo may have been the father of 加賀美 遠光 Kagami Toomitsu. Regardless, their attributed kamon appears to be the 三階菱 sangaibishi (three level diamond). As I recall, the Minamoto used white banners during the Genpei War, so you may want to use white (argent in herald speak) in your design. If you are registering a device, how about either Argent, a sangaibishi azure (for a blue on white version) or Argent, a sangaibishi gules (for a red on white version)? You can also register a badge in addition to your device: Fieldless, a sangaibishi azure (for blue on any background) or Fieldless, a sangaibishi gules (for blue on any background). If the sangaibishi is the same color as in your device, you can do this without harming anybody because of how the College of Arms operates. However, registration of the badge in addition to the device is also currently unnecessary as nobody else would (currently at least) be able to register it. Regardless, this is what a sangaibishi looks like:
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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 4, 2017 21:53:56 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Sólveig! I think that using some version of their design is an excellent idea. The 加賀美 do not appear to have been around a whole lot, but they were active ca. 1171. They also appear to be a cadet family of the Minamoto. 源 義清 Minamoto no Yoshikiyo may have been the father of 加賀美 遠光 Kagami Toomitsu. Regardless, their attributed kamon appears to be the 三階菱 sangaibishi (three level diamond). As I recall, the Minamoto used white banners during the Genpei War, so you may want to use white (argent in herald speak) in your design. If you are registering a device, how about either Argent, a sangaibishi azure (for a blue on white version) or Argent, a sangaibishi gules (for a red on white version)? You can also register a badge in addition to your device: Fieldless, a sangaibishi azure (for blue on any background) or Fieldless, a sangaibishi gules (for blue on any background). If the sangaibishi is the same color as in your device, you can do this without harming anybody because of how the College of Arms operates. However, registration of the badge in addition to the device is also currently unnecessary as nobody else would (currently at least) be able to register it. Regardless, this is what a sangaibishi looks like: Hello Sólveig! Thanks for your help in tracking that information down. Could you cite your source(s)? I'm interested where you grabbed the information, even if they are in Japanese. Wikipedia has some information on Minamoto clan structure and cadet families but they don't list the Kagami outright. (my research professors ears must be burning for me citing wikipedia). Wikipedia even has some information on the Minamoto no Yoshikiyo starting the Takeda branch. Further research on Kagami Toomitsu or the branch of that family in English is proving difficult. As for the sangaibishi, Dower lists this as part of the subset of designs for hishi on page 136 of my copy which, "both court and warrior societies used [...] as a favorite decoration even before the adoption of formal family crests." Hopefully your source somehow connects the sangaibishi to the Kagami name. I am wondering though if the selection was a post Heian selection? Would it be safe to assume more simple versions of the sangaibishi kamon are the more Heian appropriate designs?
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Post by solveig on Apr 5, 2017 16:58:10 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Sólveig! Hello Sólveig! Thanks for your help in tracking that information down. Could you cite your source(s)? I'm interested where you grabbed the information, even if they are in Japanese. Wikipedia has some information on Minamoto clan structure and cadet families but they don't list the Kagami outright. (my research professors ears must be burning for me citing wikipedia). Wikipedia even has some information on the Minamoto no Yoshikiyo starting the Takeda branch. Further research on Kagami Toomitsu or the branch of that family in English is proving difficult. Well, I can be guilty of using Wikipedia as well, but I use the Japanese version. There is a fair amount of crap on Wikipedia. The Wikipedia entry for my high school has glaringly false stuff in it. When I corrected it, somebody obviously much younger than I am deleted my edits and demanded that I document stuff which was going on when I was actually living in the town. There is a fair amount of historical revisionism going on in my hometown. Regardless, I recently picked up a copy of『日本家紋大事典』and I also recently picked up a copy of『日本古代中世人名辞典』so I suppose that I can paw through those after I get back from Eldormere Heralds and Scribes and look for more reputable citations for you should you be interested in registering sangaibishi. There are also a bunch of Societies in Japan that study this sort of thing. Sadly, some of their sites are behind a membership wall of one sort or another. I have no idea how Google penetrates those, but it does to a limited extent.
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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 9, 2017 21:39:54 GMT -5
Hi Sólveig. I am very much interested in the sangaibishi and how it relates to the Kagami surname. I am adding some links into my text that I found while googling. Some are definitions for words that have now been added to my vocabulary like hishi. I did find some additional websites while on the web but I had to use Google translate as it linked me to many Japanese only websites. For instance, this Momoyama period white on red banner. Sadly most of the websites talked about modern family history and modern usage. Interestingly enough, the Polish wikipedia had listings of kamon. I did not find any extant Heian examples using the sangaibishi design but I will continue my research. Any suggestions would be most welcome. I like the idea of tying my device into the white banner history of the Minamoto, especially if the Kagami were a cadet family. However, I was hoping to use purple as the tincture for the charge but I cannot find any historical precedent. It is a favorite color of mine. Anyhow, I believe the design translates into herald speak as: Argent, a sangaibishi purpure. However, I am also uploading some designs I did using a sangaibishi on some common SCA backdrops to get a feel for how the design looks in various forms. Some questions that came out of the exploration: A Design (preference) - Argent, a sangaibishi purpure and on a chief two bars purpure.Is it appropriate to have stripes on a banner? I see later period banners having stripes but am unsure if there is meaning attached the number or placement. If you have stripes on the banner, would you have to register the device with stripes? How about a badge? www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/flags.html mentions the following: " In the film Ran, the various divisions of the Ichimonji clan were identified with different color banners and different designs (one stripe for Tarô, two for Jirô, three for Saburô); in Kagemusha, we were shown the same flag — the Takeda mon on a solid color field — with the color of the field marking different divisions of his army. Both of these are legitimate Period techniques." Are these Heian period techniques? B Design (I flirted with this design but I think it ultimately might be too modern) - Argent, a sangaibishi voided purpure surmounted by a sangaibishi purpure. I was looking into how I could modify the classic design. Would this even be acceptable? C Design - Argent, a sangaibishi purpure. D Design (If purple doesn't work, red would be my next go to color.) - Argent, a sangaibishi gules.
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Post by solveig on Apr 13, 2017 2:16:10 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
While it may be possible to document purple in kamon, as in Europe, its incidence is quite rare. There are potential problems having to do with the use of purple in cap ranks. I strongly urge you to pick either: red, blue, or black for the charge on a white background. I generally try to promote stuff which I believe is more or less normative in preference to things which while potentially documentable are still exceptional.
Also, please do not outline the charge unless you have three independent examples of it being outlined in pre-1601 Japanese heraldry. The outlining is called "cotised" in herald speak and is restricted to "simple geometric charges". While the charge we are discussing may qualify under SENA, the College of Arms will likely discuss whether it does qualify as a simple geometric charge, and I can not guarantee that they would hold that it is one.
Finally, while the College of Arms will happily register the design with the two bars at the top, (they are called "bars gimel" in heraldspeak), Japanese thinking about kamon would not include them in the registered design. Japanese kamon are placed on a whole lot of things besides tall flags. The bars simply do not work on a lot of them. One conspicuous example where they fail is jinmaku (camp curtains). Have bars at the bottom is in my experience seriously odd. My recommendation is that you register the the overlapping diamond pattern in either red, blue, or black on a white background as a device and if you feel the need, register the diamond design in your preferred color as a fieldless badge as well. You might also consider registering the diamond design in white as a fieldless badge. Basically, you can put the overlapping diamond design all over your stuff, your clothes, &c.
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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 14, 2017 1:17:44 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! While it may be possible to document purple in kamon, as in Europe, its incidence is quite rare. There are potential problems having to do with the use of purple in cap ranks. I strongly urge you to pick either: red, blue, or black for the charge on a white background. I generally try to promote stuff which I believe is more or less normative in preference to things which while potentially documentable are still exceptional. I understand. Purple is just a favorite color is all but not to say that the other colors you suggest do not look great upon a white banner. By cap ranks are you referring to your court ranking system? That's the only part I did not understand. Also, please do not outline the charge unless you have three independent examples of it being outlined in pre-1601 Japanese heraldry. The outlining is called "cotised" in herald speak and is restricted to "simple geometric charges". While the charge we are discussing may qualify under SENA, the College of Arms will likely discuss whether it does qualify as a simple geometric charge, and I can not guarantee that they would hold that it is one. Yeah, I was already headed away from this particular design. In the end I was more curious on how you might emblazon the design. Have no fear, I will not be pursuing this design any further. Finally, while the College of Arms will happily register the design with the two bars at the top, (they are called "bars gimel" in heraldspeak), Japanese thinking about kamon would not include them in the registered design. Japanese kamon are placed on a whole lot of things besides tall flags. The bars simply do not work on a lot of them. One conspicuous example where they fail is jinmaku (camp curtains). Have bars at the bottom is in my experience seriously odd. My recommendation is that you register the the overlapping diamond pattern in either red, blue, or black on a white background as a device and if you feel the need, register the diamond design in your preferred color as a fieldless badge as well. You might also consider registering the diamond design in white as a fieldless badge. Basically, you can put the overlapping diamond design all over your stuff, your clothes, &c. I understand that kamon are placed on many different and varied items (clothes, boxes, carriages, etc.) and have considered registering a badge. I am not sure what you mean about the jinmaku not having stripes, as I have seen some examples online but truth be told, I've not done my research. That said, I had always assumed the badge color had to match the device color. As I understand, from the Japanese perspective, a device that is "light" is different than a device that is "dark." Then again, as I also understand it, the College of Arms sees these as the same. I think I would like to stay true to the culture I am portraying while also fitting within the rules of the society. Your suggestion of the white banner, which I love, would steer me away from a white charge. Am I completely off on this? All that said, you have been a tremendous help in my endeavor to keep learning. I learned quite a bit of heraldspeak this night. Thank you again for your help. I am already leaning towards the red device but will mull over the blue a bit more. I have also not had time yet these past few days but I hope to do more research into extant samples of the sangaibishi other than what my previous posts have shown. I hope to have more this weekend.
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Post by solveig on Apr 16, 2017 20:27:33 GMT -5
By cap ranks are you referring to your court ranking system? That's the only part I did not understand. Yes. Certain court ranks were associated with different colors worn at court. Black was of course at the bottom. There were several versions of this system. Here is one: You will note that red is right at the middle and includes rank five. As I recall, rank five was the lowest rank which could have an audience with the emperor. The two purple ranks are for such worthies as the chancellor, the minister of the left, and similar people at the top of the power structure. Purple tends to be a very expensive dye which in part accounts for its high status across Eurasia. Green is somewhat problematic in Japan as it is lumped together with blue as being the same primary color. As I recall, actual green is somewhat associated with the robes of high ranking Buddhist monks.For example, A blue background with a large red star outlined in white in the center would be: Azure, a mullet gules fimbriated argent. While a blue background with a fat white horizontal bar in the middle with white strips near and parallel to each side would be: Azure, a fess cotised argent. Isn't "herald speak" fun with its weird combination of English and fake French? You mentioned seeing examples of jinmaku with auxiliary bars on them. Could you tell me where I can check them out? My general experience has been that these bars are pretty much restricted to flags. There are kamon which either consist solely of bars or include bars (for example within an annulus), but those don't count. Not at all true. Actually, the College of Arms generally believes that badges and devices should be completely unrelated.The "light" v. "dark" business is to the best of my knowledge an SCA invention. It may have actually been invented by Hawley in his book about kamon. Hawley was primarily a sword collector. So, I have no idea how much time and effort he spent on his book about Japanese armory. If you look at battle paintings, you will see that colors are consistently used. You will also discover that there are plenty of examples of dark designs on light backgrounds. The whole business of white designs on black kimono appears to be a conceit that arose after 1600. If you look at depictions of high status people from before 1601 you will find plenty examples of kamon evenly distributed across clothing in nice bright primary colors.You are spot on. A white charge would be invisible on a white background. Sort of like a polar bear standing on a snow field in a snow storm.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 21:01:29 GMT -5
I have two difficulties applying cap rank colors to the SCA.
1) The assignment of colors to ranks seems to have varied between Imperial reigns.
2) These colors really only had meaning within the Imperial palace.
Even the infamously restricted "Murasaki" was not a restricted color, it was a restricted dye. Dyes that closely imitated Murasaki were common and popular outside the court.
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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 16, 2017 22:08:37 GMT -5
Yes. Certain court ranks were associated with different colors worn at court. Black was of course at the bottom. There were several versions of this system. (edited for brevity) You will note that red is right at the middle and includes rank five. As I recall, rank five was the lowest rank which could have an audience with the emperor. The two purple ranks are for such worthies as the chancellor, the minister of the left, and similar people at the top of the power structure. Purple tends to be a very expensive dye which in part accounts for its high status across Eurasia. Green is somewhat problematic in Japan as it is lumped together with blue as being the same primary color. As I recall, actual green is somewhat associated with the robes of high ranking Buddhist monks. How does the cap ranking correspond with a kamon? Would a person's device truly change color as they rise through the ranks? I understand clothing and the like but are these two truly employing the same system? By that token, not sure how I would even translate that into the SCA portrayal. Is there precedent? Thoughts? As you say, there were various systems overtime, is the diagram you are linking apart of the Heian time period? You mentioned seeing examples of jinmaku with auxiliary bars on them. Could you tell me where I can check them out? My general experience has been that these bars are pretty much restricted to flags. There are kamon which either consist solely of bars or include bars (for example within an annulus), but those don't count. The Jinmaku article on the Sengoku Daimyo website has a photo of four hishi under two horizontal stripes. There are also tobari that have a top bar and a bottom bar. Included here is the former image for ease. I will have to hunt down the other images I have seen. I didn't save them : Also including an image fro Sengokumaru though the design and application might be modern: Not at all true. Actually, the College of Arms generally believes that badges and devices should be completely unrelated. Interesting. In a perfect world it would be awesome to have a tinctures charge on a white field for device and a white charge on a colorless field for a badge. However, I just looked that up, and that's no longer allowed.
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Post by Please Delete on Apr 18, 2017 6:24:42 GMT -5
Cap rank had nothing to do with kamon color. In fact, there wasn't anything that typically had to do with kamon color because the Japanese don't register kamon in colors. You have a kamon (actually a set of mon that indicate family, you, etc.) that can be displayed in any color.
The cap rank system was in use for a relatively short period of time. It morphed into color restrictions of official robes through the Kamakura period. There isn't a problem with a kamon of a given color, but understand that if you want that to be *your* color then there are times you might run afoul of those ancient sumptuary laws. If you are a member of a Sengoku buke household, you probably don't even concern yourself with such things. I have yet to see anyone do a proper outfit that would utilize the court cap system in the SCA, and the SCA does not really count it as presumptuous. That said, purple was a pretty presumptive color in most of the world.
-Ii
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Post by solveig on Apr 18, 2017 11:38:05 GMT -5
The assignment of colors to ranks seems to have varied between Imperial reigns. It's more like they evolved over time than thrashed around on a reign to reign basis. Basically, the number of ranks tended to increase over time. That occurs with lots of ranking systems all over the world. As I recall, the US military ranks have evolved over time as well.Quite possibly true. On the other hand, for centuries the members of the imperial court were the only people who could afford this sort of clothing. Even after that, the members of the buke tended to use lower status or at least less official court clothing for their duty uniforms. At least this is what Anthony Bryant, who was much more of a clothes horse than I shall ever be, said about the formal clothing of the buke. Some extremely powerful and high ranking members of the buke also collected higher level court rank. It is a mistake to dismiss court rank for members of the buke. You are much more of a clothes horse than I shall ever be, but I would like you to cite a source for that. Further, as this originated as a discussion of kamon design, it would be good to demonstrate use of purple in kamon by commoners prior to 1601. Kamon used by imperial princes, similar worthies, or even their troops do not count.
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Post by solveig on Apr 18, 2017 12:02:53 GMT -5
The Jinmaku article on the Sengoku Daimyo website has a photo of four hishi under two horizontal stripes. There are also tobari that have a top bar and a bottom bar. Included here is the former image for ease. I will have to hunt down the other images I have seen. I didn't save them : This looks like a photograph of the more or less life size diorama at Sekigahara. If so, I have been there. I place more weight on battlefield paintings than I do on what are essentially Japanese tourist traps. Regardless, if you look at some of the flags in the diorama, you will notice that the kamon appearing on the jinmaku is repeated on some of the flags without the bars. This suggests to me that these bars are a decorative motif and should not be viewed as being part of the kamon itself. Regardless, what the various bukan (military registries) concern themselves with is what I am describing as kamon and not all the variations of flags, jinmaku, &c. which employ them. The rules have been completely rewritten since then, so the precedent is irrelevant. What counts is SENA which requires all charges to have a stated tincture. This is not as big a problem for me as it once might have been as: (1) I have encountered quite a bit of consistent tincture usage iconographic evidence and artifacts, and (2) there is a very interesting period duo-tincture charge which is essentially the kanji for the number two with the two strokes being of different tincture. Further, you are allowed to register six pieces of armory which you can color any way that you want as long as you maintain good contrast and do not conflict with previously registered armory. What you can do is register your charge as a fieldless badge as well as a device on argent. Registration as a badge basically allows you to use it as a mechanism for claiming ownership on anything (regardless of color) that you stick it on. If you are feeling particularly possessive of your charge, then you can register fieldless badges of the thing in several different colors which you want to reserve for personal use. This may be viewed as a tad greedy, but you can do it. People will still be able to register versions on specific backgrounds other than white (which you are staking claim to with your device registration) as long as they either: pick a color for the charge that you have not registered, break the charge up into multi-colored chunks, or add extra froix froix to the design.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 12:31:02 GMT -5
You are much more of a clothes horse than I shall ever be, but I would like you to cite a source for that. I don't remember exactly where I read that, but (quickly rifling through our reference shelf) there's a good discussion of sumptuary laws and "fake colors" starting on page 136 of "When Art Became Fashion" by Dale Gluckman and Sharon Takeda. "They also had the effect of encouraging the use of unrestricted colors and stimulating ways of circumventing the law." True murasaki is produced using the root of the gromwell plant. Nise (fake) murasaki can be achieved with sappanwood mordanted by iron. Fake colors eventually became such an industry that in the Edo period an edict outlawed, "new and unusual weaving and dyeing." (ibid.)
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Post by solveig on Apr 18, 2017 13:05:22 GMT -5
Thank you for the citation. I will most likely check into it. Did I mention that I am a bibliomaniac? It is my principal vice. As for the Edo period. They came up with some interesting subterfuges to get around sumptuary laws. For example, the outside of a kosode or later a kimono might be regulation black, brown, grey, &c., but the inside lining would be in some sort of restricted color or pattern. Sorry to say that I do not recall where I read about that. Consequently, I can not reciprocate in the citation department.
*SIGH* Resistance on my part is frequently futile. I just ordered a copy.
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