Japanese Name Question

[Kagami Tomoko]

Hi Folks,

I have been trying to recreate a period appropriate name for myself and I have run into a few snags. Quick backstory: the name I was given back in 2004, "Anejiro no Tamiko," doesn't really make sense for a late Heian/early Kamakura lady based on research I have done through sengokudaimyo.com and Name Construction in Medieval Japan (NCMJ). "Tamiko" (pg 221, NCMJ) is a historical given name which works for the time period. However "Anejiro" is a made up name! I think the loose translation for the surname can be read as: "first daughter + second son" (pg 198, NCMJ + pg 212, NCMJ). I believe my name giver was calling me a tomboy . All that said, I don't think it works as it combines a Female Name prefix + Male Yobina suffix. 

My goal, with your help, is to recreate a more proper surname. My first thought is to use locative naming mechanic for my surname and I wanted to use a name that can be loosely translated to "Three Mountains" as a homage to where I used to play in The Barony of Three Mountains. As I looked up the kanji online and through the Name Construction book, I noticed that the combination of kanji (三山) is sometimes read as "Sanzan" (Chinese reading?) vs "Miyama" (native reading? Sometimes written as "Mitsuyama?").

Here are my questions:

1) Do I have the kanji in the right order? (三山) vs (山三)? Does it matter?
2) Which would be the correct pronunciation given the time period (Late Heian/early Kamakura)? "Sanzan" or "Miyama" or "Yamami"?
3) Can you mix a Chinese reading for a surname with a Japanese reading for a given name? From my research, it is not uncommon for women to use the Chinese pronunciation (ie: Sei Shonagon).

Thanks in advance for your help. As an interesting aside, in my research I stumbled upon the Three Mountains of Dewa. There are some gorgeous shots on Google Images and Flickr and yet Mount Yudono, the most Holy within the Trinity, has no images as photography is banned. Pretty neat.

Cheers, -S

[solveig]

Mar 29, 2015 22:58:01 GMT -5 Kagami Tomoko said:

1) Do I have the kanji in the right order? (三山) vs (山三)? Does it matter?

Yes it does matter. When reading left-to-right, 三山 makes sense and means "three mountains" while 山三 does not make much sense to me at least.

2) Which would be the correct pronunciation given the time period (Late Heian/early Kamakura)? "Sanzan" or "Miyama" or "Yamami"?

Most family names and most uji names take kunyomi readings. As already noted, 山三 is highly unlikely so Yamami with that kanji would be highly unlikely. It might be possible that 山見 with the reading Yamami exists someplace, but it is most likely only a scenic view point. Regardless, 三山 Miyama exists as a modern family name with a modern population of 4000 most of whom live in Chiba. I think that it is somewhat unlikely as a late Heian or early Kamakura name, but it is at least correctly formed and does exist as a modern family name.

3) Can you mix a Chinese reading for a surname with a Japanese reading for a given name? From my research, it is not uncommon for women to use the Chinese pronunciation (ie: Sei Shonagon).

Yes, there are family names which take onyomi readings. There is also reason to believe that some historical feminine given names took onyomi readings as well. Regardless, to the best of my knowledge, the reading of a name does not change to match the type of reading of the other name. As for famous female figures. Many of these women are commonly referred to by something other than their actual name. As for Sei Shonagon, Shonagon is actually a title and not a name.

OK I looked up Yamami. There are 1600 people named 山見 150 named 山美 and yes there are even 10 people named 山三

[Kagami Tomoko]

Thanks Solveig,

Looks like it's back to the section for historical surnames for me!

Mar 30, 2015 7:23:15 GMT -5 solveig said:

OK I looked up Yamami. There are 1600 people named 山見 150 named 山美 and yes there are even 10 people named 山三

Just out of curiosity, what are you using to look up surnames? Is there an online database you are using?

[solveig]

Mar 30, 2015 23:10:13 GMT -5 Kagami Tomoko said:

Just out of curiosity, what are you using to look up surnames? Is there an online database you are using?

There was an online database called fortysixer which had modern population numbers and distribution information for Japanese family names. When the website suddenly disappeared, I used the wayback machine to recover the database and have it living on my computer. Regardless, Miyama 三山 does mean three mountains and has a modern population of 4000.

[Kagami Tomoko]

So I went back to the Name Construction in Medieval Japan (NCMJ) book and re-educated myself with the Historical Feminine Names chapter for the Heian time period. I think I have landed on:

Kagami Tomoko 加賀美 度茂子

Reading	Type	Example	Kanji	Period	Date	Meaning(s)	Page Number
MI	Surname	Kagami	加賀美	He'ian	1183	Beautiful + (Enlist + Celebrate a Gain)	227
TO	Female Name	Tomoko	度茂子	He'ian	1183	Event Number + Blossoming + Lady	216

And now for few questions:

• Did I miss anything?
• Would it be period appropriate to ever write Kagami Tomoko in hiragana かがみ ともこ?
• Are you allowed a space between the surname and the female name or do you combine the kanji in one string? (加賀美  度茂子 vs 加賀美度茂子)?
• Do you recommend conversing with a herald before submitting a name? If yes, any introduction to Japanese friendly West Kingdom Heralds would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for all your help.

[Saionji Shonagon]

I have been reliably informed that you don't space characters in Japanese, so 加賀美度茂子 it is! Display your class and erudition by writing it in kanji or use hiragana as the "woman's writing".

Friendly West Kingdom heralds are easy to contact. They do monthly meetings in Berkeley to discuss submissions. I can put you in touch with someone easily enough in the meantime.

www.westkingdom.org/as49/may/west-kingdom-college-heralds-meeting

[Kagami Tomoko]

Hi ya'll,

I finally received my response to my name and device submission. See below:

Unto: Kagami Tomoko

Greetings,

Your name and device submission were considered at the West Kingdom herald’s meeting on January 10, 2016. Your name has been sent on to Laurel for commentary and, we hope, eventual registration.

I regret to inform you that your device was returned for further work. You submitted Purpure, three bellflower plants, slips in annulo, blossoms to center argent. We will need the emblazon to be redrawn to provide clarification as to the identity of the flowers. They are not in the usual position of a flower in a mon. Also, there are not three slips, there are six stem pieces in the drawing. We could not “blazon” (describe in standard heraldic terms) the drawing in a way that would reproduce this artwork. The Japanese motif book that influenced your design is not an in-period reference, and so doesn’t help much.

Please contact the College of Heralds so that we may assist you with your device resubmission.

In service to the West,

Krysta of Starfall,
Green Crown


So, 50%! I'm hopeful that the name will go through without a hitch but I await the Laurel's comments. Here's hoping! The device is another story.

The device that I submitted along with my name is what I use for my avatar image to the left. I understand the commentary in regards to the number of flowers/buds, which was a concern of mine before submission, but I do not understand what further clarification they would need for the flowers. Are they asking for documentation that bellflowers existing in Japan? Are they looking for a more stylized design? Furthermore, I didn't realize that there is a "usual position of a flower within a mon." Have any of your run into this issue with placement of devices within a mon within the Heian time period?

Moving forward, I was hoping ya'll might also have some suggestions for further reading/resources that point to in-period motifs. I had thought that Heian mon tend to be more intricate compared to more modern devices. For reference, I had submitted Japanese Design Motifs ISBN-10: 0486228746 but I guess that's not enough to show that a bellflower was used in-period. Any other thoughts you might have based on the response would be greatly appreciated as well. Onward and upward! Thanks in advance.

Best,

[Please Delete]

I suspect that what you need is the following:

1) Show an example that the flower represents a bellflower as depicted in Japanese heraldry in period.

2) There are pretty standard ways of depicting things in mon, and they expanded in the

3) From a post by Solveig to the SCA Heralds list on an online copy of the Daibukan: "The 1600 cutoff corresponds to the left hand side of Frame 53 of volume one of the online edition:
kindai.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1015270"

You can search through that. If you can find what you want, you can let us know the page and I'd be happy to help translate the section, if need be. You should be able to use that as documentation.

-Ii

[Kagami Tomoko]

Feb 24, 2016 21:08:15 GMT -5 Please Delete said:

I suspect that what you need is the following:

1) Show an example that the flower represents a bellflower as depicted in Japanese heraldry in period.

2) There are pretty standard ways of depicting things in mon, and they expanded in the

3) From a post by Solveig to the SCA Heralds list on an online copy of the Daibukan: "The 1600 cutoff corresponds to the left hand side of Frame 53 of volume one of the online edition:
kindai.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1015270"

You can search through that. If you can find what you want, you can let us know the page and I'd be happy to help translate the section, if need be. You should be able to use that as documentation.

-Ii

1) When you say "show an example," I assume you to mean an extant example of the bellflower ( ie: on a piece of clothing, box, etc) and not necessarily an extant example of a my particular bellflower design. Please advise. This may take some time as I cannot read Japanese but it was a common enough motif.

2) Not sure if your sentence got cut off but I think I understand where you're coming from ~ to expand: yes, the bellflower does show up in other devices and in a different fashion than what I had submitted but not always! I included all examples of "bellflower" mon in my submission. I have found that the most typical representation of the bellflower is a 3/4 view from the top similar to Page 9, left hand side, upper center image of the three flowers from the Daibukan link. However, the flower has been drawn in other manners such as profile, back-side, flattened, etc. That said, I think showing extant examples would help make my case.

3) I appreciate your offer to help me translate pages in order to add credibility for my design. Luckily, the bellflower was used in Daibukan many times, though I do have some trepidation as it shows up using the aforementioned 3/4 view. See list below for location:

• As mentioned earlier, Page 9, left hand side, upper center image of the three flowers is the first representation of the bellflower.
• This symbol reappears on page 20, column 1 row 4 (counting left to right, top to bottom) on the left hand page.
• Page 30 top upper right hand image (3 flowers under a moon?) also appears to use a bellflower motif. The serrated leaves look wrong to me compared to the other images I have seen in my books and online. Perhaps this is a hybrid?
• And again on page 40, left hand side of the page, 5 "row/section" down from the top.

Sadly none of the images show the side view of the bellflower. Perhaps showing the side of the flower is too modern? If ya'll are interested, I've uploaded a zip file of all the pages I scanned from the Japanese Design Motifs ISBN-10: 0486228746 that show the bellflower in all its various formats. Maybe you'll have seen an extant example that I am not aware of. Again, my humble thanks for any guidance in my endeavor. 

[solveig]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig! Please bear with me, I am infamously long winded about things. Unfortunately, the College of Arms makes registering an Individually Attested Pattern much harder than I think that it should be. We really should be encouraging researched heraldry instead of discouraging it. Regardless, you have two approaches open to you:

1) Attempt to design Japanese heraldry which conforms to "core style" which is an artificial heraldic esthetic developed over time by the College of Arms itself. With a core style registration you are in theory able to include at most one type of item not found either in what is currently deemed European heraldry (that is a moving target which has gotten a bit better) and is not a European: plant, animal, tool, or object of ordinary daily use. These non-European objects can in theory be any plant, animal, or arguably artifact which was known to Europeans before 1601. Further, supposably any single "charge" from non-European armory (and Japanese armory is specifically mentioned in the rules) can be used in core style armory. However, there are prominent members of the College of Arms who will fight to the death to exclude well known premodern Japanese charges. The most infamous exclusion is the tomoe which pretty much everybody in the heraldic community knows about and which is trivial to document.

2) Individually attested patterns. This (in theory at least) allows you to use not just Japanese charges, but to arrange them in Japanese ways. Here you need to provide three unrelated datable to before 1650 or better still before 1601 examples of each item or feature of your proposed design which do not conform to the precious rules of Core Style. However, you do not get a pass on Core Style features. You must also document at least one example of the those features in your design which conform to core style.

OK - Tinctures (colors) are pretty easy. Japan used: White, Yellow, Red, Blue, Black, and Purple. At least that is what I recall. I do not believe that you get green, and I believe that the reason for this is that blue and green are grouped together as the same primary color in Japanese color thinking. Tincture use can be easily documented by the color plates in O-uma-jirushi. You can access either the online original at the National Diet Library or you can "pay what you want" for your own PDF copy of Kiho's annotated edition at: o-umajirushi.xavid.us Or you can even buy a printed copy if you love printed books the way that I do. Regardless, generally speaking Japanese kamon should have at most three tinctures. One is the field (background). One is the central objects that make up the design. One is an optional enclosure such as a ring. When you look through Daibukan, you will notice that these enclosing rings were much less common early on than North Americans imagine them being. Many very famous kamon did not have them. A final note about tincture, there is a very unusual case where the kanji for the number two is depicted in a duotone manner. This appears to be unique. You will not be able to use this to document a pattern of use.

About Daibukan itself. It turns out that the online version at the National Diet Library is broken up into volumes somewhat differently than the print edition commonly available in North American research libraries. My note about page numbers quoted by Ii-dono corresponds to the print edition, but not the online edition for which I must profusely apologize. A number of weeks ago I studiously compared the print edition with the online edition and give what should be accurate information for the version at the National Diet Library in the text below:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using the online version of 大武鑑 Daibukan

Daibukan is a chronologically organized roll of armory for members of the 武家 buke (military class) in Japan. The reprinting available in many North American libraries is broken into volumes differently than the version available online from the National Diet Library. Further, pagination within the online version restarts when a new historical period begins while the commonly available print version has a single pagination system for each print volume. While both 1600 and 1650 are included in volume one of the commonly available print edition, 1650 falls out in volume two of the online edition.

The 1600 cutoff corresponds to the left hand side of Frame 53 of volume one of the online edition:
kindai.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1015270

The 1650 cutoff corresponds to the left hand side of Frame 35 of volume two of the online edition:
kindai.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1015293

Publication indicia are on the left hand side of Frame 100 of volume one of the online edition of Daibukan:
kindai.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1015270
has the indicia for the reprint.

Publication indicia are on the left hand side of Frame 114 of volume two of the online edition of Daibukan:
kindai.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1015293

[solveig]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig! Please do not use Japanese Design Motifs published by Dover. There are major problems with that book stemming from the purpose for which it was created. Basically, it is a late 19th century catalogue for customers of the Matsuya Piece Goods Store. One of the things that happened following the Meiji Restoration is that everybody could adopt kamon. Consequently, merchants were only too happy to fill catalogues with all sorts of designs without necessarily any historical merit. The best general purpose book in English on kamon of which I am aware is: Dower, John. Elements Of Japanese Design: Handbook Of Family Crests, Heraldry & Symbolism. Weatherill, 1990. Dower includes historical notes about the various designs appearing in his book.

[solveig]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig!

Feb 23, 2016 15:19:40 GMT -5 Kagami Tomoko said:

The device that I submitted along with my name is what I use for my avatar image to the left. I understand the commentary in regards to the number of flowers/buds, which was a concern of mine before submission, but I do not understand what further clarification they would need for the flowers. Are they asking for documentation that bellflowers existing in Japan? Are they looking for a more stylized design? Furthermore, I didn't realize that there is a "usual position of a flower within a mon." Have any of your run into this issue with placement of devices within a mon within the Heian time period?

First of all. That was a kingdom level return. I seriously doubt that Kiho (who lives in the East Kingdom) took a look at it, and I do not recall taking a look at it. I have no idea who in the West Kingdom College of Heralds considers themselves to be an expert on Japanese heraldry. There is a good chance that nobody in the West Kingdom College of Heralds knows squat about Japanese heraldry. You have a right to appeal ANY kingdom level return for any reason whatsoever. You do not even have to provide a justification for the appeal. The kingdom submissions herald is required to forward your appeal. However, they can attach commentary about why your appeal should be rejected.

I just looked at the roster for the West Kingdom College of Heralds, and I do not see anyone there who I know to be proficient in Japanese heraldry. Unfortunately, the West Kingdom College of Heralds keeps its Internal Letter of Intent secret from foreign members of the College of Arms, so I am not able to read the commentary for your design. Personally, I doubt that the design you submitted is a particularly good recreation of premodern Japanese heraldic style. I just thumbed through Daibukan and didn't see it. That does not, however, mean that it wasn't used. Daibukan is devoted to military bearings and pretty much ignores the kuge (imperial court nobility). It may be possible to document your design using Dower or some other source which dates designs.

All of that said. Early Japanese heraldry tends to be simple and not overly complicated. Once we are past the Ice Dragon submission deadline, I will be writing up an article about how to use Daibukan to document Japanese heraldry and some basic observations about premodern Japanese heraldry.

Sorry, I didn't see your postings earlier.

[Kagami Tomoko]

Mar 3, 2016 2:49:23 GMT -5 solveig said:

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig!

Feb 23, 2016 15:19:40 GMT -5 Kagami Tomoko said:

The device that I submitted along with my name is what I use for my avatar image to the left. I understand the commentary in regards to the number of flowers/buds, which was a concern of mine before submission, but I do not understand what further clarification they would need for the flowers. Are they asking for documentation that bellflowers existing in Japan? Are they looking for a more stylized design? Furthermore, I didn't realize that there is a "usual position of a flower within a mon." Have any of your run into this issue with placement of devices within a mon within the Heian time period?

First of all. That was a kingdom level return. I seriously doubt that Kiho (who lives in the East Kingdom) took a look at it, and I do not recall taking a look at it. I have no idea who in the West Kingdom College of Heralds considers themselves to be an expert on Japanese heraldry. There is a good chance that nobody in the West Kingdom College of Heralds knows squat about Japanese heraldry. You have a right to appeal ANY kingdom level return for any reason whatsoever. You do not even have to provide a justification for the appeal. The kingdom submissions herald is required to forward your appeal. However, they can attach commentary about why your appeal should be rejected.

I just looked at the roster for the West Kingdom College of Heralds, and I do not see anyone there who I know to be proficient in Japanese heraldry. Unfortunately, the West Kingdom College of Heralds keeps its Internal Letter of Intent secret from foreign members of the College of Arms, so I am not able to read the commentary for your design. Personally, I doubt that the design you submitted is a particularly good recreation of premodern Japanese heraldic style. I just thumbed through Daibukan and didn't see it. That does not, however, mean that it wasn't used. Daibukan is devoted to military bearings and pretty much ignores the kuge (imperial court nobility). It may be possible to document your design using Dower or some other source which dates designs.

All of that said. Early Japanese heraldry tends to be simple and not overly complicated. Once we are past the Ice Dragon submission deadline, I will be writing up an article about how to use Daibukan to document Japanese heraldry and some basic observations about premodern Japanese heraldry.

Sorry, I didn't see your postings earlier.

Kind Solveig,

Thank you for reviewing my post and for offering links and further reading. For some reason, I had thought the more intricate designs were less modern compared to the simplistic designs as the simplistic designs. I had, for some reason thought that the simpler were easier to decipher in battle whereas the intricate designs showcased the opulence of the Heian nobility and love for art. BIG whoops on my part.

In looking at the Daibukan link, I did find devices that use the bellflower motif and listed them in my earlier postings. They are all pre Frame number 53 and should fit into the pre 1600 cap. The difference, of course, is that none use the bellflower charges are in profile unlike my design I submitted. Instead the Daibukan uses a 3/4 view of the flower in stalks of 3 with leaves below. For ease, I have reposted those findings using, I hope, more clear terminology:

• Frame 9, left-hand page, upper center image of the three flowers with foliage below.
• This symbol reappears on Frame 20, left-hand page, column 1- row 4 (counting left to right, top to bottom) - 3 flowers with foliage below.
• Frame 30, right-hand page, 3 flowers under a moon? also appears to use a bellflower motif. The serrated leaves are different and look wrong to me compared to the other images I have seen in my books and online. Perhaps this is a hybrid?
• And again on Frame 40, left-hand page, 5 "row/section" down from the top.[li]
  

Additionally: Frame 20, right-hand page, 4th row columns 8 through 10 and on Frame 25, left-hand page, 4th row there is a 5 point flower nearly the shape of a star. As I understand it, this may be the more appropriate "alternate" display of a bellflower rather than using a profile shot. The difficulty being a) I do not read Japanese and b) that there are many flowers with 5 petals in the shape of a star. Would you be able to confirm, through the text if the charge was a bellflower?

The ultimate goal, of course, is to use the bellflower as a symbol. If I have to readdress the design I have to be more accurate in my representation, I am not opposed to that course of action. However, it would be nice to use the one I have if it fits or if it can be adapted easily. But first, the research! Then the appeal. If I get to that point, and if you don't mind, I would love to pick your brain on the correct procedure in appealing a Kingdom level submission. Until then, I will quietly read, Google, and scuttle. Thank you again for your help in my journey.

Regards,
sarahehthomas
(hopefully soon, 加賀美度茂子)

[solveig]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig!

Mar 4, 2016 1:31:24 GMT -5 Kagami Tomoko said:

In looking at the Daibukan link, I did find devices that use the bellflower motif and listed them in my earlier postings. They are all pre Frame number 53 and should fit into the pre 1600 cap. The difference, of course, is that none use the bellflower charges are in profile unlike my design I submitted. Instead the Daibukan uses a 3/4 view of the flower in stalks of 3 with leaves below. For ease, I have reposted those findings using, I hope, more clear terminology:

I think that you are misidentifying things. Bellflowers are five petaled flowers which has its own set of problems since the College of Arms tends to think that any five petalled flower is a rose! I think that's stupid, but there isn't much I can do about it. Regardless, I will try to identify the things that you are looking at in Daibukan.

Frame 9, left-hand page, upper center image of the three flowers with foliage below.

This is a rather famous kamon which was used by Minamoto Yoritomo. It is actually the rindo (gentian) and not a bellflower at all.

This symbol reappears on Frame 20, left-hand page, column 1- row 4 (counting left to right, top to bottom) - 3 flowers with foliage below.

This too is an example of the rindo. Incidentally, in terms of arguing an "individually attested pattern", I beieve that the presence of the foliage is pretty much critical.

Frame 30, right-hand page, 3 flowers under a moon? also appears to use a bellflower motif. The serrated leaves are different and look wrong to me compared to the other images I have seen in my books and online. Perhaps this is a hybrid?

This is an interesting example as it is a picture of a flag and not an isolated kamon. The upper figure is the sun. (The sun goddess is more important than the moon god.) The lower figure is a common use variant of the 桐 kiri (paulownia). A special variant of the kiri is reserved to the imperial family and the Japanese government The restricted version has seven central blossoms and five blossoms on each peripheral stalk. The unrestricted version has five central blossoms and three blossoms on each peripheral stalk.

And again on Frame 40, left-hand page, 5 "row/section" down from the top.

Are we looking at the same page? When I go to volume 1 frame 20 right-hand side 4th row, I encounter floery four diamond designs one of which was born by 武田信武 Takeda Nobutake. this appears to a variant on the 四つ割菱 yotsu wari bishi (lit. diamond divided into four parts). However, the Japanese blazon appers to be 花角 hanakaku or possible more specifically 尖り花角 togari hanakaku.

Frame 25, left-hand page, 4th row there is a 5 point flower nearly the shape of a star.

Again, this is a gentian and not a bellflower.

The ultimate goal, of course, is to use the bellflower as a symbol.

Are you particularly attached to a bellflower, or are you attached to something that looks like the varioius pictures you indicated in Daibukan? A bellflower is called a 桔梗 kikyo.

[Kagami Tomoko]

Ah ha!

I see my issue. My plant knowledge and Japanese translation skills are not the best so please bear with me. In looking up different flowers, I was looking for a flower that blossomed in autumn and stumbled upon the Autumn bellflower. The Japanese Bellflower, also known as kikyo, sometimes spelled kikyoo or kikyou - was my original inspiration. I liked the idea that it was part of the seven autumn flowers. However, when I went to translate "Autumn bellflower" I also got the gentian flower, also known as rindo.

I had cross referenced the two words in the Japanese Design Motifs book and they had labeled rindo as the autumn bellflower and kikyo as a balloon flower. I did some more research online and found that "balloon flower" is sometimes used as a synonym for bellflower. Had I known earlier that the Japanese Design Motifs was no good, perhaps we could have avoided this string of confusion.

The ultimate goal would be to stick with the kikyo flower, but as you say - there may be some issues with the rose due to the 5 petal representation. My thought process was to use a profile view of the 5 petaled kikyo in in conjunction with the stem order to distance the look of the flower from the rose thus the design you see at the left. Perhaps this is just wishful thinking? I also generally like the designs that have repeated pattern, especially in threes, but perhaps that is not appropriate for a late Heian personae. 


As you mentioned before, the kuge designs are not presented in the Daibukan so I'll have to check out some other sources like the aforementioned Dower. More books! More time! More research! Thank you again for your help in clarification.