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Post by hanaya on Feb 2, 2016 13:25:09 GMT -5
I am thinking of making a patch or two of kikkô to see how it moves compared to other styles of scale/lamellar/brigandine. Is it traditional to use the same wide flat braid for the kikkô as for the kozane (3/8" to 1/2" or even wider)? And are there any rules of thumb to relate the hole size to the width of the braid? It would probably be easier to just order some braid and start playing around but I would hate to waste a roll and the shipping costs.
Also, any thoughts on the laquered vs. unlaquered finish on Rice Braid products, or nylon vs. polyester? Of the people whom Effingham recommended they seem to be the last man standing. Leather might be even easier but just feels wrong for kikkô.
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 2, 2016 22:43:58 GMT -5
Yeah, the kikko takes the same general cord as the kozane, though that can all vary a bit. The same ratio as for sugake odoshi would apply; close enough so that the "X" looks more like a square than an "X".
-Ii
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Post by hanaya on Feb 3, 2016 15:38:02 GMT -5
Thanks. Do we have any idea of the thickness of the steel in original kikkô? Based on measurements of scale armour I would guess around 1 mm/20 gauge, but scale overlap and kikko does not.
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Post by Kozure Okami on Feb 4, 2016 2:48:58 GMT -5
Just did a quick search: according to a collector whom I "know" from another forum, kikko is about 0.5mm in thickness. Seems pretty thin, but around 0.7mm is realistic for iyozane, so I guess pretty much anything between 0.5 and 1mm should be fine for kikko...
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Post by hanaya on Feb 4, 2016 7:30:11 GMT -5
Interesting. Some Roman scale is brass and around 0.25-0.3 mm thick, but any given point would have several scales covering it. Kikko does not overlap, but it is domed ... I think that plates in Euro brigandine/jacks of plate/plate sleeves tended to be thicker than the Roman stuff.
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Post by Kozure Okami on Feb 5, 2016 3:35:16 GMT -5
Okay, 0.5mm suddenly doesn't sound so thin anymore
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Post by hanaya on Feb 5, 2016 14:01:32 GMT -5
You mean you want more than a few layers of metal notecards between your innards and an angry Suebi? Clearly you're not thinking like a Roman army contractor Did they rustproof metal kikkô with laquer? The metal in the Euro equivalents was usually tinned or painted. I would be inclined to use galvy or paint the plates.
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 5, 2016 21:30:32 GMT -5
If the kikkô were exposed, definitely. I don't know that I can say the same for when it was covered over with fabric. I will take a look tomorrow, if I can remember. Everything is packed away at the moment.
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Post by hanaya on Feb 6, 2016 6:12:43 GMT -5
It would be great if you could.
I am going for the style with the plates laced in place and covered with cloth which protects the knees and the sides and back of the neck in 16th century armour. Worldantiques has some photos of kikko/tatami do where the plates are visible and either sewn to the lining or joined to each other by bands of mail.
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Post by Kozure Okami on Feb 7, 2016 7:25:54 GMT -5
Apparently most armourers were sneaky fellows. If they could save money on parts that wouldn't be visible, it wasn't unlikely for them to do so... which is not supposed to mean that rustproof kikkô were unheard of. I wonder what Katsumori-san will find out...
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 7, 2016 18:03:03 GMT -5
I took out the kikko that I have, and where the fabric is broken, you can clearly see that they are not lacquered.
-Ii
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Post by hanaya on Feb 8, 2016 4:50:10 GMT -5
Apparently most armourers were sneaky fellows. If they could save money on parts that wouldn't be visible, it wasn't unlikely for them to do so... which is not supposed to mean that rustproof kikkô were unheard of. I wonder what Katsumori-san will find out... Wow! Respectable Euro armourers did the reverse ... covered plates were usually tinned or varnished to keep them from rusting inside the cover, while exposed plates were usually bare because anyone can handle a polishing rag and shiny is sexy. So I don't have to worry that 'real kikkô' is bulkier than what I come up with.
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Post by hanaya on Feb 12, 2016 15:57:50 GMT -5
It seems that Rice Braid is a wee bit expensive after shipping to Europe. Do you have any suggestions of other sources for braid that don't look hideously wrong, make it clear what you are getting, and ship more affordably? For the amount I will need I could probably even afford silk, but it does not seem like anyone is selling us long noses flat silk braid wider than 2-3 mm right now, and the kikkô I have seen to be laced in something closer to 1/4" or 5 mm.
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Post by Kozure Okami on Feb 13, 2016 16:31:38 GMT -5
Dave Thatcher from katchu.co.uk will start offering odoshi-ge made in the UK soon, sometime this year I think. I'm even considering throwing away the green shoelace that I already bought and get some fancy silk odoshi, because it seems like Dave's stuff will be rather affordable For more information watch this thread over at the Samurai Armour Forum (they don't do SCA, but most of them collect armour and know stuff).
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Post by hanaya on Feb 14, 2016 4:24:24 GMT -5
Now that would be exciting! I can sure understand using shoelaces for a SCA armour in kebiki odoshi, but for the amount I will need I could probably afford a few dollars a meter. Its too bad that Trevor Absolon of Toraba left the armour business. I heard an interview with him (part 2 here) where he said that on one hand he was tired of all the con men who deal in Japanese antiques, and on the other hand the more he learned the more people wanted him to answer their questions for free.
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