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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 1, 2004 23:44:26 GMT -5
I've seen people fighting two long swords before, but few who fight with long&short or long&dagger. My two swords are about 40" & 24". Both have thrust points and a single edge.
I once fought with a cheap wall hanger set against a rapier and dagger. We each wore gloves and fencing masks. I found that the weight of the katan was very effective in sweeping his two swords off line, then a thrust with the short sword delivered the coup-de-grace.
The same sweep with long and thrust with short works fairly well in rattan as well, but I sometimes switch hands. Long sword in left and short in right. This protects my left side better against my opponents cutting attacks.
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Post by Draco Sezeski on Oct 7, 2004 5:05:37 GMT -5
I do not see why people would fight with to swords of equal length. One sword may get in the way of the other, and when you get it out of the way, you leave yourself open to attack. One sword should be shorter than the other.
Myself, I fight with a Katana and Daikatana, with Daikatana in left hand, as I am left handed and tend to block with that hand, thrusting quickly with my right.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 7, 2004 22:32:18 GMT -5
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Post by raito on Oct 8, 2004 8:23:48 GMT -5
There's another case -- Chinese, in a couple of different styles. Usually done with 2 equal length blades.
I'd also put forth that the escrima double stick styles undoubtedly changed a bit to deal with fencing, but that it was done way before the Spanish got there.
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Iriye
New Member
Posts: 56
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Post by Iriye on Oct 8, 2004 8:41:45 GMT -5
Good morning Raito-dono!
Having seen you in SCA with one blade and the small solid fan-thing (I don't know the name, yet).... which do you prefer, that, or two blades, either of equal or different lengths?
How do you approach the differences in technique between European and Japanese in SCA rapier?
Appreciatively,
Rizii
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Post by raito on Oct 8, 2004 10:43:45 GMT -5
I far prefer my 2 equal length swords.
I do, on occasion, fight with sword and dagger (usually when I really outclass the other fighter).
I use the FSO (fan shaped object) because I'm lousy with a shield, and the techniques are pretty close to my regular 2 sword stuff.
As for rapier, I don't go as far as Yuu-sensei and try to do it Japanese. I have a very nice set of Elizabethan stuff to wear for fencing. I don't fence often, though I did do epee for 4 ears in high school. My SCA fencing technique is mostly DiGrassi -- kill'em now, and make up the stories later.
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Post by StrikeFerret on Oct 18, 2004 11:14:45 GMT -5
I'm actually curious about the sword and spear idea that's been floating around. Something made me think about that the other day . . . It's slightly off-topic, but did I recall you saying you did that, Lord Raito (domo, is it?)
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Post by raito on Oct 18, 2004 14:52:50 GMT -5
I'm actually curious about the sword and spear idea that's been floating around. Something made me think about that the other day . . . It's slightly off-topic, but did I recall you saying you did that, Lord Raito (domo, is it?) |
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 25, 2004 23:24:10 GMT -5
A couple of pointers given to me by Sir Otakte at melee practise this Sunday.
(1) I should be using one of my swords to bind or trap the opponents weapon.
(2) Not enough flurries. I should be throwing more shots (especially given two swords).
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Post by raito on Oct 26, 2004 11:29:46 GMT -5
Seems my last somment didn't really make it out.
I have fought spear and sword. In fact, I won Northshield Coronet fighting exclusively that style, because of weapons restrictions.
I don't know whether or not it was done by the Japanese.
As for the other good Sir's advice, I'd like to offer a different perspective...
Personally, I don't fight in the usual 2 sword manner, that is, lots and lots of blows and running around. I can do it, but I don't find it to be the most effective for me. Also, many 2 sword fighters fight way out at range, and I prefer a closer fight when I can get it.
(My lady describes it as the other fighter going boing-boing-boing-boing, and me going WHACK!)
Binding the opponent's weapon does work well, though I usually use both weapons to do it, then freeing one to strike. It can be tricky. I also use my body to gain position in close, within SCA rules.
I also tend to use the threat of one weapon to open opportunities for the other.
Last weekend, it was noted to me that I actually have an effective defense with my swords, which apparently is lacking in some other fighters.
For an overview of what appears to be my style of fighting, look up the wing chun butterfly sword stuff, various escrima, armis, and kali bits, and I.33 sword and buckler fighting.
As far as my mental/stratgegic game, it seems to be in the neighborhood of Sun Tsu, Di Grassi, and Fiore.
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Post by tagiri on Oct 28, 2004 17:07:15 GMT -5
Harder to do with a long and short, I think. But I will strive for it tonight at practise.
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Post by Yamamori on Nov 11, 2004 12:20:40 GMT -5
Harder to do with a long and short, I think. But I will strive for it tonight at practise. Hold the short sword in the forward hand, the longer in the back hand - more-or-less equal lengths. This is how it's done in koryu martial arts (they also do the two-sword binding Raito-dono described, called jumonji, for the cross-shape of the swords as they catch the opponent's weapon) though I haven't tried it or seen it done with SCA-type fighting. As for spear & sword, the Heike monogatari mentions some warriors using a naginata in one hand, and a tachi in the other. Yamamori |
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Post by raito on Nov 12, 2004 11:01:51 GMT -5
I should mention that I also do a fair bit of sword and dagger fighting -- it seems less intimidating to the new guys (until they figure out that I like to fight in close ;D).
One technique to try comes from escrima singlestick and open hand, modified for our rules.
When your opponent strikes, take the blow on your sword, preferable in the juncture between blade and tsuba. Transfer that contact to your shorter weapon, and strike with the longer. This is the basis of many, many escrima drills, and shows up a fair bit in 1.33. Once you get the mechanics down, it flows very smoothly, and you don't lose time, partly because you're binding.
If your opponent has 2 weapons, bind the one he strikes with, moving to that side, so that you can use your contact with his weapon against him if he strikes with the other.
I think I need to have Koha put up the pictures from my buckler bout with Madog at Autumn Rose. Beautiful illustration of the technique. (I was sick that day and didn't want the fights to last too long).
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Dec 3, 2004 11:00:50 GMT -5
Did something new last night ...
I've been reading The Sword of No-Sword by John Stevens about the life of Yamaoka Tesshu. In it is an illustration of two men in chudan with a drawn triangle whose points where one man's eyes, his hands, and a point before or past the opponent. The first case demonstrated a lack of projection of ki. The later, the correct projection of ki. That got me thinking...
And then there were his doka...
Swordsmanship:
I am not struck,
Nor is my opponent hit.
Unobstructed I move in
And attain the ultimate.
Against an opponent's sword
Assume no stance
And keep your mind unmoved.
That is the place of victory.
Where swords meet
Throw off illusion.
Abandon yourself
And you will tread on the living path.
All of this got me thinking aikido, omote and ura, and of the yin and yang (in/yo) of a sword. The yang being a region in front of the blade and a region with an apex at the tip in which a cut or thrust can be made. The yin being a region behind the blade in which no attack can be made.
When I held my two swords at fighter practise last night, I looked at them in this way. When I raised them into postion I looked some more. Then I twisted my wrist 60 degrees and watched how the in/yo of the blade changed. Even though the physical location of my wrist and sword were unchanged, its attitude and angles of attack and defense were radically different. Suddenly, I was holding a sword that resembled a stick and not a stick that resembled a sword. I can say that my fighting was definately improved last night, although I don't yet know if this is why.
Nor do I know if this is a good way of looking at kenjutsu. What little I've learned emphasizes using the back of the blade for a sliding block, something I don't recall seeing last night.
Anyway ... it was something different ... and fun.
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Post by raito on Dec 3, 2004 15:11:15 GMT -5
I'll note here that my sword are 36" long, with about 28" of blade, and 8" of handle. The current set have tsuba made from a couple of punch drops, about 3 inches in diameter and a quarter inch thick. (the newer ones have Mandrake tips and turned aluminum tsuba, slightly larger -- sometimes my grip makes the tsuba slide under the edge of the gauntlet). No pommels, though. Because the swords defend as well as attack, I want the center of percussion out as far as possible, for stability. If I added weight behind my hand, the center would move back, making my blade more likely to move when hit.
This means that I end up with a couple inches of handle below my hand. This is mighty handy. Often, I'll take a hit on the handle instead of my wrist. I can often block a blow to my leg with that coule inches, leaving me in a much better position to strike than if I lower my tip, or push my hand down far enough to catch the blow on my blade.
I sometimes also hook shields with that last little bit. I'm sure Baron Adrien isn't too happy that I did that to him in the last 2 Crowns. Sometimes I even trap weapons with it. It's very useful.
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