Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Yanone
Nov 28, 2005 21:22:40 GMT -5
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 28, 2005 21:22:40 GMT -5
OK, so I went looking for more info on yanone and karimata. I have to wonder if the author that claims these things were for cutting armor lacing knew that arrows spin in flight - which means the arrowhead would have to land just so to do what it is claimed to do. I can certainly see karimata as an antipersonnel, anti-horse weapon. It's going to hack up anything you try to pull it out of. And if one is going to argue the "rope cutter" route, I'd believe you could use them to rip up sails quite effectively. Or tear through the roof of an akunoya, maybe. www.ncjsc.org/gloss_yanone.htm refers to the karimata as 'rope cutters' but says they weren't actually used for that. It does say they were also used for hunting large game. (And men. And horses. Even men on boats.) www.sptradarch.org/yabarchkit.html seems to indicate that karimata can also be used to hold a humming or whistling head. Behold, the feudal Stuka! Musing.... Saionji
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Yanone
Nov 28, 2005 23:10:49 GMT -5
Post by tomoyuki on Nov 28, 2005 23:10:49 GMT -5
And with Rudalmasa shooting them, I want to be inside. (very inside joke) The reason for the 4 feather shafts. It kept them from spinning. Someone here Must have tried some of these. Any Samurai archers out there? And for sure they would mess up silk sails bad!!! I don't doubt there use for cutting laceing. Once guns were introduced, and lacing went away, so did these arrows. they became art work, like the big leaf arrows did, There was little use for them by 1600. Fewer Samurai had much lacing to cut. But the pointed, and bodkin tips were used through the 1800's. The barbed ones look very nasty!!!
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Yanone
Nov 29, 2005 1:36:18 GMT -5
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 29, 2005 1:36:18 GMT -5
www.texasarchery.org/Documents/ArchersParadox/Archersparadox.htm describes "Archer's paradox" and how arrows move when they come off a bow. They are not static. They flex and they spin, otherwise they won't fly. More feathers (or bigger feathers) will increase drag. I'm pretty sure it will not prevent rotation from happening - though it may slow it down some. Flu flu arrows, for example, are used for hunting birds - you can shoot upward, they fly pretty fast for a bit, then they drop like a rock. They employ big feathers and as many as six of them - that kind of drag effect might also be useful when you want to rain death on enemy soliders. I've only done Western style archery. I also goofed around with glue and weird fletching just to see what the arrows would do (a very long time ago). You can make arrows increase or decrease their spin - and even take funky curved trajectories - by monkeying with where you place the feathers. But I don't think you can make them not spin at all. I'd love to get Date-dono in on this conversation because he does kyudo. Only he's in the middle of a move so we may not hear from him for a bit. Saionji
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Yanone
Nov 29, 2005 3:00:01 GMT -5
Post by Nagamochi on Nov 29, 2005 3:00:01 GMT -5
Last I checked, rotation is created when one helixes the fletches. Attaching them at a slight angle has a similar effect as rifling a barrel does for a bullet. Otherwise you just attach them straight on to the shaft and consider yourself done with it.
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Yanone
Nov 29, 2005 16:17:02 GMT -5
Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Nov 29, 2005 16:17:02 GMT -5
I have an observation to make, I appologize in advance for I was exposed to too much aeronautical engineering and ballistics in my youth.
The fletchings of ya were made from feathers, feather have a partial curve to them (they are air-foils). This curvature (event if the fletchings are dead straight) will create a high and low pressure differential, resulting in imparted spin to the arrow.
Even if one utilized 4 fletchings, taking 2 from the right tail side, and 2 from the left tail side, you cannot position them in a way that will cancel the effect you will only succeed in creating low and high pressure zones alon the arrow which will result in erratic flight. In short, utilizing feathers fletchings you will get spin.
Where these arrows are good, are at range, with the forward facing points, and the large width you increase your chances to snag at least one "tine" into a target. (Bigger projectile=more surface area to hit with=greater chance of hit) A broad head of the same width would more than likely glance away unless the point strikes home. The downside of these arrows is penetration is limited. Somewhat useless against armor, but nasty against flesh.
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Yanone
Nov 29, 2005 17:13:08 GMT -5
Post by tomoyuki on Nov 29, 2005 17:13:08 GMT -5
I think you may just have it there Sanjuichiro. They would likely bite through any Japanese chainmail I have seen as well. Would make a nasty wound. And I'm sure you are correct, that reguardless of spin, these forked arrows would be hard to make them do what you wanted them to. Likely why they were DXed. Hey did you have any luck with the Sword study group? Tomoyuki
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Yanone
Nov 29, 2005 18:25:57 GMT -5
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 29, 2005 18:25:57 GMT -5
Heck no! Your physics backs up my practical observations! ;->
There was a Mythbusters episode earlier this year in which they tried to split arrows. Despite the fact that one of the build team appeared to be a fairly competent archer, nobody on the project seemed to realize that arrows do not fly straight until they started looking at slow motion footage of their experiments. (Since said archer was using a compound hunting bow, I'll allow that the speed generated by this bow might make these things a little harder to see than shots off my slow, girly little 30 lb longbow.)
1. Projectiles (including arrows) move in a parabolic arc. Depending on the power behind the shot and the distance being covered, the arc of the parabola may be greater or less. This is pretty easy to see in classic movie battle scenes when archers are shooting up into the air at long range. It's harder to see when a bullet leaves a gun, but there's still a shallow parabolic trajectory.
2. Arrows flex. This is the famous "archer's paradox" in which the arrow shaft will flex around the bow and flex back again, correcting it's flight if the spine (amount of flexibility of the arrow shaft) is correctly matched to the amount of power released by the bow. More powerful bows will require stiffer arrow shafts, lighter bows will get better performance with more flexible ones. And yes, I can and have discussed preferred length and stiffness with a completely straight face in mixed company before. Kindly get your surfboards out of the gutter.
3. Arrows spin. Depending on whether you use right or left wing feathers, how far back on the shaft you put 'em, how big a feather you use, how many, whether you use a straight or helical fletch, there are all kinds of ways to increase or decrease spin, drag, improve the balance of the arrow, etc. The quadruple fletch used with karimata are most likely to balance a point-heavy arrow. (Point- heavy is good for war arrows, they'll hit harder.)
S.
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Yanone
Nov 29, 2005 19:33:23 GMT -5
Post by tomoyuki on Nov 29, 2005 19:33:23 GMT -5
Great points. As a note for you archers out there. A few weeks ago I picked up the book "The Great War Bow" by Strickland& Hardy. Wonderful study of the long bow, and others. All the research they did with Long Bows they brought up with the Mary Rose. Tactical research, and a whole lot more. If you are an Archer, ask Santa for one soon. Tomoyuki
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Yanone
Nov 29, 2005 19:41:00 GMT -5
Post by Please Delete on Nov 29, 2005 19:41:00 GMT -5
Regarding the arrow points, my general impression from different sources has been:
1. Large, thick, pointed arrowheads are great for tearing into flesh and killing unarmoured things (people or big game, especially). Thus, you have the broadhead arrows.
2. To get the most force with the least resistance (ie to get through armour, etc.) you want a long, thin needle point--the bodkin.
3. For a great amount of damage along a surface for hitting smaller targets, you want something that 'catches'--like the forked point.
The theory for the forked point that makes the most sense to me is that it was actually for hunting birds. This makes a lot of sense to me--a larger surface area striking would probably mean less penetration--I don't know that this equates to less damage. You have a larger striking area, though, so you are more likely to catch part of your target with a point, rather than simply grazing it.
If you want to then shoot at strings, this is probably the arrow you want. Yeah, you are spinning, but there is only one point in your rotation where you will be right 'on' the line of the string--figure out the forward velocity v. the spin, and you can start to calculate what the chances are that you will 'catch' the string. It is actually something of the reverse of shuriken throwing--there you want enough spin so that a point is always in front. Here you want the roatation to simply be slow enough so that you are most likely not going to hit something dead-on.
I would be most interested in finding out about practical tests, however.
Of further interest: I was reading online a claim that these types of arrowheads were found at the Battle of Tewkesbury. They also appear to be on a lot of the Japanese 'whistling arrows' I've seen, but those are mostly ceremonial, it would appear.
As complete conjecture: Would the whistling bulb and the four fletchings have both helped make a better birding arrow? Slower arrow (i.e. you don't have to run as far to get it back), that tells you where it is (but would that alert the bird?), with less penetration (meaning you are likely to knock the bird out of the sky or off a branch and still have something edible left to show for it).
-Ii
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Yanone
Nov 30, 2005 3:18:35 GMT -5
Post by Nagamochi on Nov 30, 2005 3:18:35 GMT -5
The other pro point I was taught about forked tips, though not sure if it's true, is that when using it to hunt water fowl, they aid in pushing pinion feathers out of the way, which act quite a bit like armor. Though for all I know, this could be a classic deer-camp myth.
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Yanone
Nov 30, 2005 9:32:26 GMT -5
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 30, 2005 9:32:26 GMT -5
Amazon has no listing for it. There's Longbow: A Social And Military History by Robert Hardy, which I have. Is this a new publication?
Saionji
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