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Post by Please Delete on Feb 18, 2006 1:37:54 GMT -5
I'm curious what people here might know about the evolution of swords. Specifically, some things that came up at the Battodo Taikai today.
One of the classes was on the appreciation of antique Japanese swords, and the class was very good, but as I ws talking with Mr. Yamazaki during and after the class (while we were taking turns at 'kantei' practice), he mentioned several things that I'd like to find out more about, and thought people may have run into it.
First, we know that during the Nambokucho period we see a larger, heavier blade. Since this still seems early for widespread uchigatana, and these blades seem extremely beefy for tachi, I asked about it and was told that this was actually where the nodachi comes from, with a 30~38" cutting edge in the early swords. I was told that many of these were cut down to be used as more practical uchigatana later.
That led to a conversation on the classification of Japanese swords. That is, what is a 'tachi', 'daito', 'shoto', 'wakizashi', 'nodachi', etc. I know that we see something called a 'koshi-gatana' (hip-knife/hip-blade) worn with tachi, at least in the Kamakura period. Mr. Yamazaki mentioned the use of the 'kodachi', or 'small tachi', worn tachi style with a larger tachi. I was really wondering if anyone had seen examples of this, because I know I'm not familiar with it and today, in the world of budo, at least, 'kodachi' appears to be used for just about any small sword.
I thought there would be some more historically minded folks here who could help me puzzle all of this out. Hopefully when I get home I'll be able to look in some of my books for more information.
-Ii
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Feb 19, 2006 10:08:25 GMT -5
I'm curious what people here might know about the evolution of swords... Are you trying to bait me tomodachi? ;D There has been very little in the way of sword questions here of late, so I havn't posted much on it. Quite accurate. True, there are some nodachi that are insanely long, but they are rare today. For a moment, consider the amount of "standard" tachi/katana that have been destroyed over the years (rough estimates place this at about 5-8 million blades) they would have been a even bigger exception in period. Like in Europe unique items tend to hang around more than the run of the mill, thus altering the percentage. One the things that gets me of is the number of huge nodachi in use by Japanese personas in the field, the ratio is off-balance... It just looks funny to my eyes. Yup, a great many swords were shortened to fit with the changing styles of combat, the changing styles of fashion, and the evolving suptuary laws of the Edo period. Did you mention the "katana as overgrown knife evolutionary theroy?"  I do not know what and which terms in history were used but the practice of wearing 2 tachi, one large and beefy, and a slightly shorter and more graceful one (to be used single handed from horseback) is a historical practice of the muromachi period during the transition from predominantly horseback archery to a greater reliance on both mounted and unmounted "melee" combat. Think of it akin to western knights carrying a heavy war blade as well as a lighter "riding" sword in their kit. However it is not the most common thing in period illustrations, but it does occur. ::chuckle:: What? I do not bore you enough in person with my sword rants? ;D -Takeda |
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Post by tomoyuki on Feb 20, 2006 20:04:18 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
I've been absent for a while. I do know a bit about swords though.
I don't know if I have ever seen any documentation on the two Tachi thing. Tanto, and extra bow string, yes. shorter sword, maybe. Waks came into use in the late Nambo period. Mostly as a backup weapon. The reason the swords became bigger and better, was that there was a BIG war going on. The armor had evolved a bit, and most "upper" rank Samurai were still on horseback. Hence, a sword that could reach out and touch someone from a bit higher station.
In mho, the best of all Nihonto, are Nambo. I have held a few, most were cut down, but still you could feel the power like no other period in sword making. The swords of that period were made for combat. It just happened to take place in the absolute hayday of Japanese sword making. Many of Masamune's guys were still working, or had just handed down the skills to others. The only problem, was that because of the "now" need for new swords, durring war, many of the best techniques, of the late Kamakura were lost. Never to be regained.
If you have never held, and looked into a sword full of late K. early N, chikei, please try to do this one day. Pics. are great, but there is nothing like the real thing.
Nodachi, were rare!!!! A pain to forge, and most likely useless in combat, unless you were a god.
Like Sanji said, MANY Tachi were shortened to katana length. I own a number of these. You find very few "everyday" swords from before 1500 that are not cut down in some way. It does not effect there killing ability in any way.
Most Tachi before 1500 were over 30 in. for the same reason as above. In the 1500's most Samurai started to carry the two swords. Or, as I would have, a good yari, and a sword.
Good to be back, Tomoyuki
I will post on the armor page about my new armor. teaser: The under arm plates, and all the hole fittings are from REAL armors, of the old days.
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 23, 2006 7:16:41 GMT -5
Nodachi, were rare!!!! A pain to forge, and most likely useless in combat, unless you were a god. This is what I had thought, but according to one of the members of the American branch of the NHBTK who was helping with the Kantei demonstration (Mike Yamazaki, iirc), the big, beefy Nambokucho era blades that everyone loves were nodachi--it is just that most nodachi were in the range of 30"~38" rather than the larger, much more impressive blades that everyone thinks of as 'nodachi'. With that size, the nodachi becomes a much more reasonable weapon. -Ii |
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Feb 23, 2006 9:22:44 GMT -5
This is what I had thought, but according to one of the members of the American branch of the NHBTK who was helping with the Kantei demonstration (Mike Yamazaki, iirc), the big, beefy Nambokucho era blades that everyone loves were nodachi--it is just that most nodachi were in the range of 30"~38" rather than the larger, much more impressive blades that everyone thinks of as 'nodachi'. With that size, the nodachi becomes a much more reasonable weapon. Hmmm... While I agree that there were a good number of 30-38" swords, I cannot agree that they are all nodachi. There is such a fine line between types of swords, is a 17" blade a O-tanto, or a wakizashi? What do we use to distinguish one blade category from another? The simple answer, and the one used in the world of Nihonto today (and possibly in period) is the mountings dictate categorization as possible. A 35" blade may have belonged to a tachi or a nodachi, we need to know the context of it's mounting. (It's categorization can switch if the mountings do.) Nodachi were larger than normal blades, and typically were in relatively plain furnishings. While much of the funtiure is similar to tachi it is quite often simplified, and of completely diffrent proportions. Nodachi were not elegant weapons, they were not exceptional blades, nor were their mountings*. * Caviat: Prior to the restrictions imposed on blade length in the Edo period nodachi were not comment worthy, after they became regulated (and most long blades had been shortened or were destroyed) their value increased (both monetarily and stylisticly). Some nodachi found today were remounted into much more respectable fittings in the edo period, quite frequently into buke-zukuri-sugata, as such they should be considered katana, not nodachi, albeit big ones. |
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Post by tomoyuki on Feb 23, 2006 12:20:56 GMT -5
Hi Gang,
Here is the simple formula. Up to 12 in. it is Tanto. 12-23.9 in. it is a wak. 24+ it is Katana or Tachi. As stated above, the mountings made it one or the other. Most of the uncut Tachi I have seen are 29-40 in. The true Nodachi I have seen were 5 ft+++. Most were forged in two, or more parts. Only a few, were one pure chunk of folded steel. There is a great web page somewhere, with pics. of the best ones. I will try to find it. The reason for the multi parts was that people's forges were only so long. It is very hard to keep a constant temp in a forge over 4ft. With charcoal, and wind.
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Feb 23, 2006 14:17:01 GMT -5
...Up to 12 in. it is Tanto. 12-23.9 in. it is a wak. 24+ it is Katana or Tachi... It's a good guideline for unmounted or shirasaya blades, even alot of top nihontoites in the US and Japan go by those categories, but it realy does not capture the nuances. BTW folks the idea of the foot long divisions is based on one of the regulations started by Tokugawa Hidetada, conveniently in the Japanese measurement system a shaku (foot equivilent) is = to 11.98XXXX something inches. I have not seen this phenomina, the few I have examined appeared to be forged in a single piece with no full cross grain welds. I have seen some that the grain changes, as if they were constructed from different batches when making the sunobe, but none described as you mention. (maybe I should look harder) As a side note, the difficulty lay in the yakiire (hardening) where the whole blade has to be at a temperature in excess of 1600 degrees for the quench. While difficult even for tachi, it can be done. As a side note the better quality monsters that still survive were made by smiths who worked at centers that operate tatara smelters. The one example I have seen that has a "broken" hamon was noted to have been in a fire. To me that is enough of an excuse for a soft spot insead of a piecemeal hardening. -Takeda |
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Post by tomoyuki on Feb 24, 2006 11:47:07 GMT -5
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Post by tomoyuki on Feb 24, 2006 11:51:32 GMT -5
How bout that Norimitsu!!!! A sword made for the gods.
No one else could use it.
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