'Historical Combat' rules

[Please Delete]

I'm not sure how many people are aware of the 'Historical Combat' proposal that was approved last year (www.sca.org/officers/arts/AandS_martial_public_proposal.pdf), but I have been wondering: Is it possible to do Japanese arts under this proposal?

One of the things that may be a limiting factor is that you need documentation for your techniques that go back before 1600 CE.
a. This rules out most Edo and later schools. E.g. Toyama Ryu and its exponents are right out the window. On the other hand, what of schools like 'Kashima Shinryu'? Would people need to find out _which_ methods are pre-17th century? How would you recreate those?

b. What about schools which have a claim to be older, but may not have documentary evidence available for public consumption--what is the documentary evidence that one could show other than 'well, sensei says....'

I also wonder about permission--many people I know who practice koryu that would go back that far would not want to teach outside of the ryuha. Can that ryuha's practice be brought into the SCA? Or perhaps it becomes a demonstration only?

I know I am wrestling with this because, while I wouldn't have a problem asking if I could demonstrate techniques (assuming I was comfortable that I was trying to show what it may have been like in pre-17th century Japan), I wouldn't feel right (even if given permission) teaching them--I'd rather recommend people come to class and point them at my instructors. On the other hand, I might feel different if I were living somewhere without my instructors living so close (and I was authorized to show/instruct others).

I'm wondering if anyone else has considered this, and what the thoughts are out there.


-Ii

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

ii said:

I know I am wrestling with this because, while I wouldn't have a problem asking if I could demonstrate techniques (assuming I was comfortable that I was trying to show what it may have been like in pre-17th century Japan), I wouldn't feel right (even if given permission) teaching them--I'd rather recommend people come to class and point them at my instructors.

In my opinion, you have the jist of it here. Demos - yes; Instruction - no.

Of course, if you actually had a teaching certificate from something like the Tenden Katori Shinto Ryu and you wanted to teach in the SCA, don't let my opinion stand in your way. But trying to 'teach' it without that certificate is fraudulent.

On the other hand, I might feel different if I were living somewhere without my instructors living so close (and I was authorized to show/instruct others).

That's a discussion you would have to have with your school/instructors. If there was a community of interested students and your school was interested in growing in that direction, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I'm wondering if anyone else has considered this, and what the thoughts are out there.

Sure. I get asked to teach 'Japanese weapon techniques' all the time. I start out by explicitly stating that I have very little formal training in any particular weapon but that I would be happy to show them some general principles of Japanese swordmanship or polearms. Stuff pulled from sources like the Zen Nihon Naginata Renmei's Illustrated Naginata or Kendo's five basic Kamae or Toyama's eight Kihon Kata or Lowry's Bokken. But I never, never, never claim that this is the real thing and urge those who really want to learn Japanese weapons to seek a formal school.

Now, if I were in a Japanese ryu that taught weapons of any kind, I wouldn't even do the above without explicit permission from my instructors.

[V Van Fleet]

I wonder if you are over-thinking this. The document states that teaching/demonstrating historical combat techniques will be administered by Arts and Sciences and as such, the same basic guidelines applied to other A&S classes will be applied to "historical combat" classes.

We all know that the documentation requirements for these classes are often cursory and modern applications/materials are widely used in A&S classes. At Pennsic last year, I attended a modern aikido class. Neither the A&S Ministry, nor the participants seemed to have a problem with this. Persons offering to teach at SCA events are not required to be certified by anyone or have any particular “credentials”. Virtually anyone who wants to is permitted to teach. Everyone understands this, so let’s not over-inflate the importance of these classes---they are a gift we give to each other; a community service and no one attending an SCA class assumes that the instructor is THE authority on the subject.

When I teach a class, it is an opportunity for me to share my particular passion with others. I would not expect anyone to accept my offering as definitive on the subject---no one does. I hope that people who are new to the subject might find something that ignites their own research. Those who are experienced in the subject usually only reaffirm their particular opinion, regardless of what is offered---it matters not. For the mere hour that we are together, I got to share something I love with people who cared enough to come to class and just maybe, they got excited about it too. What more can you do in an hour?


I believe that you are thinking too narrowly about documentation in terms of your ryuha. I can’t imagine that an A& S Minister would require you deliver an explicit article of documentation of a particular school or expect that you are a certified teacher of it. If your instructor says okay, well then, okay. It is not like you are giving out rank or anything.

I suggest that you approach your subject broadly. Really, in an hour class you are not teaching a ryuha, you are introducing general concepts and basic techniques that are common to all schools…and the students will not have enough time to learn the techniques you are teaching. The very best that you can hope to accomplish in such a class is to inspire the students to discover more on their own. And that is quite an accomplishment.

[Please Delete]

You know, I wasn't really looking at the one-off classes so much as the weekly classes. E.g. Edward de Clare, locally, is looking to set up a class to study I.33 (an extant 13th/14th century training manual). When a group gets together to study I.33, there is not some larger 'owner' of those techniques. If I were to try to study Katori Shinryu from a manual, though, I could see some people taking offense to it, if I claimed to then teach or demonstrate it.

However, I'm also wondering: What is period technique? Where can we go to find it? How can we separate what is being taught in the ryuha today from what was taught back in the days of Kamiizumi Isenokami and others?

Still, I may be overthinking it as you suggest. Giving a class on the broader 'Japanese swordsmanship' might be doable, as long as I explain where I'm coming from.

Part of it, too, is a desire not to misrepresent, as I feel has been done too often with martial arts. It may be more of a moral personal question than anything else. Or just rambling of one who things much more than he ought of things that are of little or no real consequence.

:-)

-Ii

[Saionji Shonagon]

However, I'm also wondering: What is period technique? Where can we go to find it?

Be sure and let me know if along the way you should stumble across a 14th century CD buried in a bog with a recording of someone speaking Middle English. Or a 13th century one of the choir of Notre Dame de Paris singing works by Perotin....
(Speaking of which, I loved the Chaucer blog that "Godric" put up on the A-list earlier in the week!)

Part of it, too, is a desire not to misrepresent, as I feel has been done too often with martial arts. It may be more of a moral personal question than anything else.

OK, martial arts and medieval Western music are not exactly interchangeable, but I understand your musings. As a modern self taught amateur, what I (as "Jehanne") have learned is, of necessity, filtered through the interpretations of music scholars and performances by recording artists. Would a medieval listener recognize anything I sing or play? (I don't know!) Does my exposure to musical styles of other ages and cultures affect what comes out, however unconsciously? (More than likely.)
It's a tough call.....

Saionji

[V Van Fleet]

You know, I wasn't really looking at the one-off classes so much as the weekly classes.

Yes, a weekly course is a big undertaking, and not what I was addressing. I think that maintaining a consistency of student attendance is more of an obstacle than the creating a curriculum. When you are attempting to build a build a body of practical knowledge, rather than just spark interest, you are reliant on student commitment, and so then, is your syllabus. This is a reality to be reckoned with, even at a legitimate dojo.

If I were to try to study Katori Shinryu from a manual, though, I could see some people taking offense to it, if I claimed to then teach or demonstrate it.

I would not be concerned about the vague possibility of some unnamed someone taking offence, however, you do not need to copy the MO of another group and use a particular manual to base a course of study. More important is how comfortable you feel with your own knowledge and skills. If you are a competent sword teacher, then teach. If you are not yet sure, then narrow your scope until you are. If you are giving regular classes then you must be working with your local group and it is the group (i.e., participation) that really dictates what and how often you teach.


However, I'm also wondering: What is period technique? Where can we go to find it?

This should be your paramount concern here. These are THE questions. Since there exists no published manual to try to replicate, the research process requires significant experience in at least some of the primary martial arts of the samurai. A bare minimum would be sword, long-staff and aikibujutsu. This covers the three relevant special relationships the samurai manipulated strategically. If you are experienced in fighting within these three spatial relationships and their combinations, it is possible to re-create or recover practical techniques.

So the short answer to “What is period technique” is determined by practical research framed by the constraints of the period you are studying. Your results render confidence in their authenticity. You can not learn techniques from a book or rely on a book to give your techniques authenticity. So first you have to be properly tutored in basic weapons and Aikibujutsu arts, and then you test your knowledge against the logical situations that would have been pertinent to samurai warfare. And your results are framed by: “I have been researching this diligently and these are the discoveries I have made, based on my practical experience…“

I expect that his is not what you wanted to consider, but it is the only legitimate method I know of to properly recreate basic medieval techniques. I am convinced that some practical knowledge of long weapons and Aikibujutsu is critical to recreating a legitimate sword technique. Swordsmanship existed in relationship to other weapons strategies, not as an isolated art as it has evolved to day. If swordsmanship is taught in an isolated environment, then the strategy that can be taught there is severely limited---even a liability, because it does not address the reality of other applications.

So, if you are working with friends in you local group and you do not yourself have practical experience in all these areas, amongst the collective, you might have individuals who do. A ‘research group’ could be formed, which sounds much more fun and “profitable” than a conventional class situation and implies none of the baggage that you aer concerned with.

Anyway, explore the options. I’ll bet you feel comfortable with the curriculum of your particular sword school and you are probably competent to share it with others. But you have issues about the appropriateness of teaching this in an SCA class. You are less sure of what might be legitimate period techniques, or how to go about teaching them, but you are confident that they would be more fitting of the SCA (and probably of more interest to you personally as well).

So do it. Get out of your comfort zone and intend to discover how the samurai fought--this is the very best that anyone can really do. No one can take offence to an (inferred) authority over medieval techniques if you present research, rather than scholarship.

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

V said:

So do it. Get out of your comfort zone and intend to discover how the samurai fought--this is the very best that anyone can really do. No one can take offence to an (inferred) authority over medieval techniques if you present research, rather than scholarship.

My thought: Do it in armor

[V Van Fleet]

An Added note to Ii:

If on the other hand, some of the fighters in your local group are looking to you take on the responsibility of running a “Japanese” version of an extended, regular course, you may have cause to hesitate. Now, this advice is coming from a professional instructor---I have a dojo in Michigan and teach exactly this subject--as well as being an SCA member: I would not agree to take on the responsibility of such a course of study in the context of the SCA and would not recommend that you do unless you are both very experienced teaching novices and secure in your own knowledge of the Japanese martial arts. The good reasons for this are too numerous to list, some are self-evident, but none of them have to do with offending others or legitimacy. In my experience, it is utterly impractical as well as dangerous to present a comprehensive system such as the samurai martial arts in a casual context such as the SCA. I have given many demonstrations and introduced these martial arts to many a novice and presenting in the SCA has special circumstances…

I would guess that most of the people desiring to learn from you are SCA fighters. As you already know, the two forms are in no way comparable and can even be considered conflicting strategies. This doesn’t mean that SCA fighters can’t study Japanese martial arts, it is rather that the two are very different and do not complement each other readily. SCA is a sport fencing, more akin to kendo than traditional shinken training. You are right, if they want to learn Japanese martial arts, they should go to a dojo, not the SCA. Send them to your teacher, or your friend’s teacher, but don’t take responsibility for them because they are too busy/lazy/cheap to embark on these studies as you yourself did. I’m not being sharp tongued, I’m just being real. If they cannot put forth a personal effort, they will not reap anything from your effort.

On the other hand, a short-course (couple of classes) or an occasional class is very doable, and probably all anyone really wants in the end. Start small and keep it basic. You could do a class on basic kamae and their implied strategies. Another on foot work… These things give a window to the Japanese way but are also relevant to other forms of sword fencing. And so on from there. If interest evolves, you can continue into research….

P.S. Armor is a factor to be considered in recreation, especailly if you are concerning yourself exclusively with battlefield techniques, but with most, if not all actual martial training, the samurai did not bother with it---no need. They utilized other methods for practical safety and the liabilites of armor are so self-evident as to not justify regular study (IMHO).

[Kitadatetenno]

Too many quotes, so I've removed them...

This'll be rather difficult to respond to, because I agree with half your points, and disagree with the other half.

If you are a competent sword teacher, then teach. If you are not yet sure, then narrow your scope until you are.

I agree with this.

This should be your paramount concern here. These are THE questions.

And this. But...

Since there exists no published manual to try to replicate, the research process requires significant experience in at least some of the primary martial arts of the samurai. A bare minimum would be sword, long-staff and aikibujutsu. This covers the three relevant special relationships the samurai manipulated strategically. If you are experienced in fighting within these three spatial relationships and their combinations, it is possible to re-create or recover practical techniques.

I disagree with most of this. At best, I think you've left some of your thought process out of this.

You basically say that because there's no written manual of samurai arts, you must know samurai arts first before recreating samurai arts. I also disagree that, even if what you said made practical sense, that it would be possible to recreate or recover technique. You might, but you also woulldn't know that you did. It would be research, but not into what they actually did back then.

So the short answer to “What is period technique” is determined by practical research framed by the constraints of the period you are studying. Your results render confidence in their authenticity. You can not learn techniques from a book or rely on a book to give your techniques authenticity. So first you have to be properly tutored in basic weapons and Aikibujutsu arts, and then you test your knowledge against the logical situations that would have been pertinent to samurai warfare. And your results are framed by: “I have been researching this diligently and these are the discoveries I have made, based on my practical experience…“

Again, I disagree. Without some primary, period source, there could be NO confidence in authenticity.

It is entirely possible to learn technique from written material, though it is very difficult and time consuming. Bob Charron has spent several years learning from the various written versions of Fiore, without prior formal martial arts experience (other than SCA, which I do consider such an art, though he and I sometimes disagree as to what degree).

I disagree that one must learn (presumably modern, whatever the definition of modern might be) weapon arts to research period ones. Learning modern fencing won't give one much insight, if any, into the techniques of period rapier.

I expect that his is not what you wanted to consider, but it is the only legitimate method I know of to properly recreate basic medieval techniques. I am convinced that some practical knowledge of long weapons and Aikibujutsu is critical to recreating a legitimate sword technique. Swordsmanship existed in relationship to other weapons strategies, not as an isolated art as it has evolved to day. If swordsmanship is taught in an isolated environment, then the strategy that can be taught there is severely limited---even a liability, because it does not address the reality of other applications.

Half agree, half disagree.

I agree with your assesment that the sword did not exist in a vacuum, and so the techniques taught in period would reflect that.

I do not agree with your (in this case, unstated) seeming premise that modern arts would help.

So do it. Get out of your comfort zone and intend to discover how the samurai fought--this is the very best that anyone can really do. No one can take offence to an (inferred) authority over medieval techniques if you present research, rather than scholarship.

And back to agreeing again.

Modern techniques do not help period arts, and in most cases do not even help other modern techniques. Speaking only of the SCA here, I have enough times to have lost count been the authorization partner for persons who have had more modern martial arts credentials than I (and I do have some, but nothing special). They generally fell into 2 groups. The first group only had the kowledge of the techniques of their system. They generally did poorly. The second group use those techniques to learn what was important to fighting in general (such as rhythm, meter, timing, etc.) and did fairly well.


People never seem to inderstand when I say to bring over everything that is NOT technique, and leave technique behind.

(Which incidentally, is why I don't study chess openings. I want to improve my strategy, not my chess playing).

[victoriavanfleet]

Well, Kit...., I did not feel it was necessiary to discuss the obvious need for historical study, etc., because I was speaking directly to Ii, who is both a schooled swordsman and a bit of a scholar on the subject at large. To do so might have been construed as patronizing; sorry if my post to him was abbreviated.

Anyway, the much of the traditional Japanese Martial arts like swordsmanship, aikibujutsu, bo jutsu, kyuyo, etc., as they are practiced today, are not very far, if even measurable from their medieval forms. We were not not talking about new forms like aikido or karate. Or even forms developed in the Edo period like iaido/kendo/judo. I think Ii might have been wondering how he might go about discovering how to discern where deviations (period/post period) may exist. My abbreviated answer was to test it. That is because I suspected that Ii had already read a great deal about the subject. Yeah, there are a few books that describe and illustrate period techniques. But my advice to him was that he would have both more fun and more success, if he investigated it in practice.

As a side, I disagree that one could learn Japanese
swordsmanship by reading a book about it (my opinion). However, since Ii learned swordsmanship in the traditional way (person to person), he probably has acquired enough skill to research these things in a book .

How about:

"Heiho Okugisho — The Secret of High Strategy"
-Translated into English for the first time by Obata Toshishiro, this book features the original Japanese text on one page and the English translation juxtaposed. Yamamoto Kansuke, recorded as a strategist for the famous general Takeda Shingen, is said to have originally compiled this work. Reviews have strongly favored the accuracy of this translation. Historically an important and significant work of Japanese strategy.


This is out of print, but I think there is a reprint in the works.
www.shinkendo.com/product.html

Or

"The Sword & the Mind", 1985 Trans. by Hiroaki Sato This was a bargain published by Barnes and Noble ONLY $6.98!!!!

[Please Delete]

First of all, please don't think me skilled. I have barely shodan in a couple of arts, and there is more to learn every day. :-)

Also, do not feel that I will think anyone is being patronizing. I feel that the more information, the better, as I'm asking this not only for myself, but for anyone else who might wonder about such things. To that end, thank you everyone who has replied, and thank you to Fleet-dono for your recommended readings--I'll have to check that out.

Maybe we should try to compile a list of resources of this nature? For instance, although just outside of our period, there exists some copies of techniques included with Heiho Kadensho (The Yagyu family teachings, aka "The Life-Giving Sword" as it seems more often called in English).

My own personal quest at this point is going to be to try to locate more documentation on the difference between arts today, and arts back in our period of study. For example, I've seen the modern 'jodan', or upper stance, referred to as 'shin-jodan', or 'new' upper stance, because in the Edo period, when they were practicing more for unarmoured combat, this became the standard (since you didn't have your helmet and associated accoutrement getting in the way). I've also seen references to 'hasso' being further out from the body--many arts that I've seen today (Toyama Ryu, Mugai Ryu, Eishin Ryu, Kasumi Shinto Ryu) hold it in close. I'm not sure if things like this are stylistic differences, or overall differences.

I must say, I like Karl Friday's book "Legacy of the Sword" for a good starting point regarding the history of sword schools in general. I'm going to have to go through it and some of my other books once I finally tear them out of the boxes to put them back on the walls (painting--all the fun of moving without actually going anywhere!).

I think my focus for the time being will be to try to get a partner and see if we can't at least do a bit of 'stage choreography' for demo purposes--make sure that we both look 'right' so we could do an enjoyable demo for an audience. To that end, I may look at trying to show some basic kamae and basic strikes, without going in to anything particular, if I did a class.


-Ii

[Yamamori]

...

[Marten van Rosenveldt]

On a forum for An Tir rapier fencers www.nwrapier.com/MessageForums/tabid/193/forumid/19/postid/1025/view/topic/Default.aspx
Don Gregorio posted the following:

This subject was brought up in the "Who is participating in the Western Martial Arts?" thread, so it seems like it's probably a good time for me to chime in. For those who do not know, I have recently been accepted as the Kingdom Deputy Minister of Historic Combat Arts & Sciences for the Kingdom of AnTir (I have to come up with a shorter way of saying that). In other words, if you are in AnTir and are doing combat A&S at an event, I should be getting a report about it.

So, what is Historic Combat A&S? I would recommend that you take a look at the guidelines that were approved by the society board of directors: www.sca.org/officers/arts/AandS_martial_public_proposal.pdf (You'll need Adobe Acrobat to view it). Rather than jumping in with interpreting things, I suggest that those of you who are interested read through the rules and, if you have any comments or questions, post them here.

BTW, I'm still looking for reporting deputies for Inlands Region, and the Principalities of Avacal and TirRigh. If you are interested or curious about one of those positions, drop me an email at [e-mail].

I in turn posted this query:

Since there are Japanese personas within the SCA [I'm not trying to open a can of worms as to whether there should be - assume a ladder as engineers are wont to say], are DOCUMENTABLE JSA demonstrations of, e.g., batto jutsu a valid SCA Historical combat A&S subject

?

Here is the reply:

I'm not particularly interested in telling people what they can and can't study or whether their persuits are valid. As far as I'm concerned, if you can document it to within SCA period (preferably using period sources or interpretations thereof), I don't see a problem with it. As far as I can tell, the rules do not specify that the martial arts must be European, or even Western. Use your judgement, and determine for yourself whether or not what you are working with "fits." As with all things, just be prepared for the fact that some folks might not agree with you. I'm sure that's something we're all fairly used to by now.

Gregorio

FYI.