klaus
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Post by klaus on Apr 13, 2005 12:43:53 GMT -5
Hello all,
I was looking at the Noble plastics kozane. Would it be appropriate to mix the red and black plates? Perhaps a do using the black and red for the shoulders? Or would mixing the colors of the plates be a big no-no?
Thanks,
Klaus
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 13, 2005 13:18:04 GMT -5
I honestly don't know, but I don't recall ever seeing two-tone plates in one Japanese armor. I will, of course, defer to our more expert armor enthusiasts because I'm still learning these things too. (BTW, I do like red and black as a color combination. You could always do contrasting plates and lacing.)
If you're going to research this yourself, start looking for examples of extant armors of the type you're planning on building. You may find evidence that it was done, in which case you're good to go.
Just by looking at period artwork and extant textiles, I've learned that the Japanese wore plaids, pieced garments and I even found a painting with a figure in a hitatare that looks suspiciously like green camouflage - but probably isn't. ;->
M.
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Post by raito on Apr 13, 2005 13:36:18 GMT -5
Yes, there's plaids, but why would you want to wear something that any weaver can make, rather than something dyed to your preference?
As for the camo, are you referring to, what is it, 'Maple Viewing on Mount Takao' or somesuch. I've often thought that the guy in green was wearing camo (though it's really stylized cloud stuff).
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 13, 2005 14:06:17 GMT -5
Yes, there's plaids, but why would you want to wear something that any weaver can make, rather than something dyed to your preference? Well, I wouldn't, but there was a guy on sca-jml who thought making Black Watch hakama would be good gag - and it's not. ;-> That's the one. It also has people in plaid kosode..... www .tnm.go.jp / Really Long URL* For some reason, links to the Tokyo National Museum don't want to display images on the board, so you'll have to click on the link. You can also check out enlarged views from here: Camo guy is at the left side of the screen and the plaids in the grouping at the right. M. *moderator edit to hide long url |
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Apr 13, 2005 14:32:39 GMT -5
Well, I wouldn't, but there was a guy on sca-jml who thought making Black Watch hakama would be good gag - and it's not. ;-> I think that might have been me... I happen to like the colors, and someone in my family married a Campbell, so sue me... or rather, gossip about my poor fasion sense in court, O target princess, for I would not expect less of your razor tounge and wonderous poetic skill. ;D |
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Apr 13, 2005 14:40:06 GMT -5
...Would it be appropriate to mix the red and black plates? Perhaps a do using the black and red for the shoulders? Or would mixing the colors of the plates be a big no-no?... Well, mixing colors like that, black for the do, red for the sode, might have happened in period, but it certainly is not common enough that I can ever recall seeing it. I would think in those circumstances it would have been because of being cobbled together armor... (Certainly not appropriate for one considering themsleves to be from the Ashikaga family) Secondly, I cannot recall of seeing the colors of the plates of kozane being mixed, but I recall seeing a gosuko of red and black of iyozane plates, the overall effect being somewhat like a checkerboard. IIRC it is a black and white picture in Ian Bottomley's Arms and Armor of the Samurai... not sure what page, and or if the armor was from the Sengoku of Edo period, but I am guessing Edo. Takeda Sanjuichiro |
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Post by raito on Apr 13, 2005 15:19:02 GMT -5
That's the one. Looks like kamishimo to me, though, not hitatare. I like this picture a lot. The clothing on the guys on the left looks like mine does when I let it get lax, especially the neckline. |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 13, 2005 16:36:42 GMT -5
That's the one. Looks like kamishimo to me, though, not hitatare. Eep, that's what I meant and it came out wrong! Sorry, still better at girl clothes than boy clothes. ;-> Which only goes to prove you made it right and it's behaving the way it's supposed to. M. |
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Apr 13, 2005 16:42:13 GMT -5
For some reason, links to the Tokyo National Museum don't want to display images on the board, s  Just click the image for the enlargement.  |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 13, 2005 16:45:35 GMT -5
I think that might have been me... Actually I think it might've been Oniyama? I meant that the plaid was NOT a joke because we have iconographic evidence that the Japanese were wearing plaid weaves. After twelve years of Catholic school, I personally got sick of wearing plaid. Your mileage may vary. No, wait. They're all going THERE! Ack! Stop! What IS it with that fantasy anyway? No princess, I. ;-> M. |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 13, 2005 16:53:19 GMT -5
Just click the image for the enlargement. Thank you, O Moderator. This person humbly admits she is a Luddite and something of a spaz and needs to learn more about the mysteries of html! M. |
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Post by Please Delete on Apr 13, 2005 17:46:45 GMT -5
That's the one. Looks like kamishimo to me, though, not hitatare. Bit of a technical correction: 'kamishimo' literally means 'upper and lower' and refers to both the upper and lower garment being of the same material, color, etc. It can be used with either 'hitatare' or 'kataginu' . I believe what people are looking for is 'kataginu kamishimo' as opposed to a 'hitatare kamishimo'.  -Ii |
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Post by Please Delete on Apr 13, 2005 17:50:21 GMT -5
As to the original question:
Remember, the plastic is to simulate the lacquered kozane. Most often, what I have seen, is that the kozane were lacquered in strips, so that each 'lame' of 'sane' would be lacquered into one piece--while you could mix the lacquers, that would probably be difficult.
Doing alternate rows might be something: I think I may have seen something where the bottom, long rows were lacquered one way and the upper, shorter rows were lacquered differently, but I need to check on that. If I did, I think it would be very rare.
Could be wrong. No time to check, though--have to go get beaten with a stick.
-Ii
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Post by raito on Apr 13, 2005 18:49:53 GMT -5
It can be used with either 'hitatare' or 'kataginu' . I believe what people are looking for is 'kataginu kamishimo' as opposed to a 'hitatare kamishimo'. -Ii You are, of course, correct. But I don't believe I've ever seen hitatare that's not kamishimo... |
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Apr 13, 2005 22:21:15 GMT -5
Not so common in the later period, but fairly common through Kamakura, when the hitatare was just a jacket (type thing) worn with hakama like any other jacket type thing (e.g., suikan). It's interesting that the hitatare was what developed into uniformity with the hakama, while the suikan never did...
As to the original question -- yes, it would be possible to mix colors of scales from one row to the next (but not alternating scales!) -- but it would be rather eccentric.
Tony
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