Some questions for those using the Noble Kozane...

[Arima Jinsuke]

Hey all.

I was finally getting started on my next set of armor, using the Noble Plastics kozane. I had a few questions for those of you who have worked with them.

1) What are you using, and what have you used, for shiki? I'm experimenting with various things, but so far nothing is really living up to what I want. I picked up some thin steel rod, but its a bit bulky (being round). Was then trying out some thinner, fairly stiff wire (the kind used in gardening applications), but I think its a bit soft, too bendable (might try heat-hardening it with my stove ). I don't really have a workshop (or access to one) at the moment, so serious cutting of metal, grinding, etc. is out of the question. What have you used, and been happy with?

2) What are you using to lace the scales together into boards? I have heard parachute cord tossed around, but even gutted, it seems way too thick and bulky (and is tough to get through the holes), ties off in large knots, and leaves exactly zero room to run anything else through the holes (such as hishinui-no-ita lacing). I'm pretty sure the hishinui-no-ita are supposed to be holding the scales together, but simple lacing material doesn't seem adequate for that job considering the abuse sport combat armor recieves. I have access to some really strong waxed lacing flat cord (the kind used to tie together wire bundles), even in black to match the scales, but I was wondering what else people are using?

3) Tapering the profile of the dou...ugh. The scales are not tapered, and I can't really bend them into a "s" shape (and I'm not even really clear how that works anyway). Is there another way? Don't need much of a taper...I'm a fairly "straight" guy, with my chest only a bit larger than my waist (middle age coming on...help me... ). Would simply lowering the scale count as I went downwards on the dou work? The same thing you do to widen out the kusazuri, in reverse? Or should I simply resign myself to building a tube?

Anyway, any help would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance for any responses. Be warned though...you'll probably only encourage me. I'll end up asking more questions. ;D

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

Guest-Arima said:

...I picked up some thin steel rod, but its a bit bulky (being round).

This is what I was going to use, 1/8 inch rod rolled/hammered flat

...thinner, fairly stiff wire (the kind used in gardening applications), but I think its a bit soft, too bendable (might try heat-hardening it with my stove)...

First off that black steel wire from Home Despot does not have sufficent carbon content to harden anywhere near noticeably, it is considered low-carbon steel (below .40% carbon). Secondly, to harden steel by heat, you have to take steel up to the austinizing temperature (which is 1350-1500 degrees F for most steels) so that the carbon and iron molecules decide to do there little dance of joy, then rapidly drop the temperature to they freeze in their happy state called marsenite, the hard form of steel), and do not revert to pearlite(softest); or bainite (slightly less soft, more springy).

2)...What are you using to lace the scales together into boards?...

sinew or thin rawhide lace, from what I understand, it is traditional.

...and leaves exactly zero room to run anything else through the holes (such as hishinui-no-ita lacing)...

You use wider rawhide strips for the hishinui-no-ita, then lacquer them a different color, or for later armors you use a material like your lacing, the hishinui-no-ita will probably be the least tore up of your exposed lacings since it is being subjected to much less stress (it does not bear appreciable weight).

3) Tapering the profile of the dou...

by having a bit of give to the rows when you lace them fro the scales, you can bend (slighly) it into a curved form, and that is where your shiki come into play... that and having different numbers of scales. Either way without shaped scales you are only going to get a slight perception of difference, nothing dramatic.

-Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa

[AJBryant]

sinew or thin rawhide lace, from what I understand, it is traditional.

No, deerhide is traditional. Deerhide is thin, soft, and mushy. Rawhide isn't any of that stuff.

You use wider rawhide strips for the hishinui-no-ita, then lacquer them a different color, or for later armors you use a material like your lacing, the hishinui-no-ita will probably be the least tore up of your exposed lacings since it is being subjected to much less stress (it does not bear appreciable weight).

Again -- deerhide.

Just an FYI.


Tony

[Mykaru]

Or monkeyleather.

Good luck on finding THAT though.

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

AJBryant said:

No, deerhide is traditional. Deerhide is thin, soft, and mushy. Rawhide isn't any of that stuff.

If anyone knows this, it's you
Is the deerhide they use for the foundation lacing properly tanned or just dried and maybe smoked?

I had understood it to be untanned leather, that is why I suggested rawhide... most of the basic rawhide you get is buckskin rawhide, just have to moisten it and lace away, it contracts a bit when it dries so it makes a nice tight laceing.

[Arima Jinsuke]

Well the confusion for me stemmed from the description on Mr. Bryant's superb site:

"The bottom-most plate, called the hishinui-no-ita, is decorated with broad, bright-colored crosslaces (hishinui). These occupy the bottom pairs of four holes where the shita garami usually goes. Hishinui were leather in the older ô-yoroi, but by the 1500s were usually red braid, regardless of the color of the lacing of the rest of the armour. Occasionally, when the armour was laced in red, the hishinui were yellow or orange, just to provide a contrast."

I'll be using Rice Braid and/or Shoelace material to lace the suit, and I don't think its strong enough or tight enough to replace the shita garami on the hishinui no ita. I think I'll have to lace the hishinui no ita with regular shita garami first, the put the hishinui over the top of it, hiding the shita garami and looking decorative. Otherwise its going to be a constant maintenance hassle.

Was thinking of using this:

shop.store.yahoo.com/tmt/waxlaccor.html

.085" thick, so it leaves plenty of room to run another lace through the holes (unlike deerhide laces or parachute cord), its black, so it hides easily, and a single strand is stong ehough to hold me up (we use it to tie up wire bundles in military aircraft). No exactly authentic, but extremely strong, durable, maintenance-free, and capable of lacing nice and tight. But, again, I was curious as to what other people were having success with.

I'm aware of what it takes to heat-treat steel, but I was blithely unaware of the carbon content of most of what I can buy at Home Depot, so thanks for the heads up there. I may have found a solution, assuming I can get it.

Last Christmas, my wife was making pine cone wreaths. Bought a couple of wire frames from Michael's, and asked me to cut some of the pieces out so the pine cones would fit. I struggled to cut this stuff with hand tools. Its about 2/3rds to 3/4ths the size of the 1/8" steel rod, as hard or harder to bend, and has a nice dark green protective coating on it. I figure 2-3 frames, cut up, should provide enough shiki material. Just don't know if they sell them this time of year. Seriously strong steel wire though. I saved the pieces I cut out, and sitting here bending one by hand, I'm sure they'll be strong enough.

But, again, what are other people using and liking?

Besides...my wife will freak if I start heating wire to glowing hot on the electric burners...