Sengoku Warrior Women

[Torayoshi]

Greeting , I have a question about women warriors in Sengoku Japan.

Did they exist?

I ask because my Lady is a heavy fighter and a mundane martial artist, however she just doesn't feel that a female warrior of that time is very likely. I know there is at least one early period lady warrior who is famous ( name and time are gone right now). and how would one explain this in a persona story etc..

I hope those that are more learned than I can help.


Torashi

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

torashi said:

Greeting , I have a question about women warriors in Sengoku Japan...Did they exist?

That can be a difficult question to answer. The samurai (buke) were a class in the caste system. Women were members of this class and were expected "to serve" just as the men were. They were theoreticlly held to the same standards of conduct, but were not expected to take up arms. Though in the Sengoku era there are a few exmaples of women being at various estates and fortifications who had to direct actions while their husbands/fathers were away. There are a handful in history that took up arms, but some accounts (Takeda Shingen's lesser wife/concubine) being one in my mind, might have been more fantasy than reality. (We do know one of his concubines was noted at being a skillful rider, and proficent with Naginata, and did accompany him in the field.; but wether she actualy served as a combat leader, or warrior on the field, and wether she died at Kawanakajima III is up for speculation.)

I ask because my Lady is a heavy fighter and a mundane martial artist, however she just doesn't feel that a female warrior of that time is very likely. I know there is at least one early period lady warrior who is famous ( name and time are gone right now). and how would one explain this in a persona story etc..

Tomoe Gozen, late 12th century, wife of Kiso (Minamoto) Yoshinaka. There is at least one documentable example, also there is the Empress Jingo, mother of "Hachiman" Emperor Ojin, who reportedly led campaigns in Korea during not only her reign, but during her pregnancy with the future emperor (and deified being, the god of war.) It is unlikely women would take up arms for field battles, they may have under ambush while travelling, and during sieges, but that should not stop her, there is at least one documentable example, so run with it.
Plus I for one would love to see more women in japanese armor!

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

torashi said:

Greeting , I have a question about women warriors in Sengoku Japan.

Did they exist?

This is Lady Yae as portrayed in the movie Ten to Chi to. She is, as far as I know, entirely ficticious.

[Ii Katsumori]

If you do a 'google' search on 'women warriors japan' you get this site:

www.koryu.com/library/wwj1.html

Take a look, it might help point you in the right direction. It is rare, but there were a handful, iirc.

-Ii

[Ryokai]

If you're looking for more info on Tomoe Gozen, or other famous wome for that matter durring Japanese history as a whole you might want to look here as well.

www.samurai-archives.com/women.html

[Torayoshi]

Thank you all for your imput and Lady Gozen is the one I was thinking of, I'll pass the info on to my lady.


and BTW she dose wear Samurai armour.


Torashi

[adarael]

Empress Jingo, mother of "Hachiman" Emperor Ojin, who reportedly led campaigns in Korea during not only her reign, but during her pregnancy with the future emperor (and deified being, the god of war.)

Just to cast Hachiman in a slightly different light...
Hachiman is usually referred to as the 'Japanese god of war' in most publications, but that's not exactly the right light to put on him. First off, Hachiman isn't a god. In some contexts, he's considered a kami - in others, he's a 'daibosatsu', which is another problematic term. 'Great Bodhisattva' is the best compromise I can think of. Either of these things is a god, per se; Kami are divine, but 'god' is a poor term to put to them at best.

Secondarily, Hachiman's purview isn't war, per se. It's more 'national defense'. War, conceptually, is handled jointly by Hachiman, Bishamon-ten (strength and bujutsu as a skill), and Takemikazuchi (as 'subduer of the unruly'). Hachiman isn't the kind of fellow you'd want to ask for help from if you were going to go beat up your neighbor and take some of his land. He's the guy you'd ask for help from if you were going to go put down someone who was treasonous, or was rebelling (along with Takemikazuchi, in the latter case.

I mention this only in the interests of putting a finer point of definition on Japanese religious subtleties.

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

adarael said:

First off, Hachiman isn't a god. In some contexts, he's considered a kami - in others, he's a 'daibosatsu', which is another problematic term. 'Great Bodhisattva' is the best compromise I can think of. Either of these things is a god, per se; Kami are divine, but 'god' is a poor term to put to them at best.

True, we can quibble over subtilties, after all Amateratsu, Susano/Susanowo, Izanagi, etc. are considered Kami... IMO kami translates as deity/spirit, in some aspects a kami is quite local, and honored, sometimes they are considered powerful and are worshipped and petitioned with prayer. Is Hachiman a god? In my book, yes, He had temples built to him, there were organizations created to serve the temples, as well as manage pilgrims and petitioners. Hachiman was the target of prayer, people expected him to do something for them in return. It also depends if you look at it from a Shinto, Buddhist, or neither point of view.

Secondarily, Hachiman's purview isn't war, per se. It's more 'national defense'

From my understaning of shinto, kami do not have jobs as in the western model, people pray to them and request of them for vast arrays of reasons. Hachiman has been/is also a petitioned for success in fishing, agriculture, test taking, promotions, animal hubantry, hunting, and boat building, in addition to prayers to be successful in battle.

Hachiman isn't the kind of fellow you'd want to ask for help from if you were going to go beat up your neighbor and take some of his land... He's the guy you'd ask for help from if you were going to go put down someone who was treasonous, or was rebelling...

We won't mention about how the rebel Minamoto were his most notable supporters. It's all in your point of view... (and how you word your prayers)

[adarael]

True, we can quibble over subtilties, after all Amateratsu, Susano/Susanowo, Izanagi, etc. are considered Kami... IMO kami translates as deity/spirit, in some aspects a kami is quite local, and honored, sometimes they are considered powerful and are worshipped and petitioned with prayer.

This is essentially what I mean - I, personally, prefer not to use the term god for three reasons.
1) It tends, though does not HAVE to, bring along a whole bundle of western baggage about what the word 'God' implies...
2) Tied to #1, God has a tendancy to imply a non-regionality that's incorrect for most kami, and a transcendence that's not quite right for Bodhisattvas.
3) It was beaten out of my by my mentor upon pain of being shipped to Kokogakuin University and being forced to deal with his mentor, who is very old and grumpy.

From my understaning of shinto, kami do not have jobs as in the western model, people pray to them and request of them for vast arrays of reasons. Hachiman has been/is also a petitioned for success in fishing, agriculture, test taking, promotions, animal hubantry, hunting, and boat building, in addition to prayers to be successful in battle.

This is both true and untrue. Kami don't have jobs per se, most of the time - rather, they have what I'd call either auspices or 'favored duties.' Not all Kami had duties as such, but all of them had some thing or things that was primarily 'their own turf'. Similar in a lot of ways to voodoun loa and their theme.

While Hachiman has been and will be prayed to for a lot of things that weren't initially his auspice, he traditionally was relegated to the role of national defense and protection. The reason that such a role is semi-official is that the Jingikan (the 'Office of Heaven on Earth') had this tendancy to regulate things like what kami had auspice over what, what to offer said kami, how important those kami were, et cetera. Unsusprisingly they had a tendancy to marginalize kami and festivals that didn't support the imperial system and households.

We won't mention about how the rebel Minamoto were his most notable supporters. It's all in your point of view... (and how you word your prayers)

I wouldn't expect it to be any other way. After all, they rather firmly believed (or seemed to) that they were doing the 'right thing.'
(In quotes because I'm not about to make a judgement call on the Gempei wars.)

[mikaiyawa]

I had a friend once explain to our history class that Kami were a cross between a spirit and a patron saint.

but he was talking to a lot of what can be called main stream Christians (much as I hate using that broad a term) who had little to no concept of anything that wasn't taught in a western catechism.

It's simplistic, but gets the point across.

Mieka

[Please Delete]

I'm not sure I am quite qilling to give over the definition of 'god' to Judeo-Christian-Islamic definitions just yet. While I may be a Christian and see 'God' as a supreme being, that does not, to my mind, make the word 'god' (rather than the Proper Noun) the same thing.

I would think that the Shinto kami seem about on the same footing as the Norse, Greek, Egyptian, or even Indian gods. They have stories and positions and rank, but they get called on for different things. For example, the Greeks had two main gods that they called on for war, but would call on a host of others as well for a variety of reasons all having to do with influencing the outcome.

I also thought that the 'Bosatsu' aspect of most kami was really another persona. That is, a Buddhist Bosatsu was merged with the worship of the kami. There are several examples I of this that I recall in Inari worship, specifically.

-Ii

[mikaiyawa]

I don't like that where I am (deep south) there seems to be no distinction between God (the Western version) and god (noun) it makes having a sensible conversation about even historical 'gods' difficult to have in public.

Neru and I were tossed out of a coffee shop for being "heretics" when we were drawing parallels between Bhodivista and Catholic saints for a shared class paper.

(makes a face) then the prof shifted the subject matter for us and we wound up doing a paper on the history of the cotton gin. It was 'less controversial'

here is a semi related question to the original. Some temples of male monk were well known for combat skill (Mt. Heie) were any monastic women trained to fight as their male brethren or were the nuns doing more contemplation?

Mieka

[Torayoshi]

I just wanted to thank all of you for your input.

My lady has decided to rough out a persona as the daughter of a samurai , who fought after her brother fell in battle ... etc..etc.. and take the name Obata Kiku as a start.

Torashi