A set of horrible newbie questions...

[qworg]

...from a horribly new person like myself!

I started actually participating in the SCA about 6 weeks ago, when I moved to the mighty kingdom of Trimaris (Vivat!)

That being said, I've been a "lurker" for a while, even attending an event north of Chicago dressed in something less than period garb (uhm, actually, it was a yukata with a set of jikatabi... and my shakuhachi flute).

I've started to learn to fight and have been set up in loaner armor so far, but I really want to get started on my Japanese kit.

My persona is that of a late period Ikko-Ikki Shinshu Jodo sohei, set up at Ishiyama Honganji.

My goal is to look like I'm wearing no head armor, just a kato no kesa, and have the rest of my Sengoku-era armor peeking out from under my robes.

Now on to the actual questions:

1) I've been reading Effingham-dono's site and been staring hard at various designs. I've also been looking at the design on the Yama Kaminari page. While I'd love to have a metal kit, I'm going to have to settle for plastic. However, I do have access to sheets of black ABS and a CNC router OR black plastic barrel. Which should I use? Is dishing plastic a pain? Would it be acceptable to construct a "sakura-do" from plastic? An Sendai or Okegawa-Do?

2) Reference Effingham-dono's site: When a lame is called "narrower" in the "Making a Do" page, what does that mean? What about "thinner"? A lame is a tied together set of scales right? Do the terms of "narrower" and "thinner" interchange based on scales vs. lames?

3) What distinguishes a Japanese okegawa-do from, say, an earlier period European breastplate/backplate combo? What parts are laced in that part of the kit? Do the laces for the Kuzazuri just punch through the bottom of the sendai or okegawa do? If the upper is of solid horizontal lame, how do the kuzazuri assemble?

Wow, that's a lot. =0

Hopefully some of these haven't been covered before or aren't idiot questions. =)

Thank you very much!

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

qworg said:

I started actually participating in the SCA about 6 weeks ago, when I moved to the mighty kingdom of Trimaris (Vivat!)

Qworg-bozu, welcome!

1)...However, I do have access to sheets of black ABS and a CNC router OR black plastic barrel. Which should I use?

Personally from my experiance with the different forms of plastic, my top choice would be kydex (if money is not an object) secondly abs, and lastly (and only with great trepidation) barrel. Barrel plastic is not virgin material, and has been formed, it does not repsond well to trying to reshape the plates, so one must work with the already induced curvature. It is difficult to make look right, I have yet to see it done well enough to tell close up.

Is dishing plastic a pain?

Impossible actualy, (semantics) imparting a curve is very easy, imparting a compound curve is somewhat tricky, and to achive a deep concave "dishing" one must actually stretch the plastic or it will crease and wrinkle. I have seen wonderfully crafted plastic articles, the technique is different from working metal, but it still is an art.

Would it be acceptable to construct a sakura-do from plastic? An Sendai or Okegawa-Do?

If you mean these as three seperate elements, yes, you could construct a Sakura Haramaki, an Okegawa Do or a Sendai Do out of plastic. Sendai Do are a very particular pattern that include a full backplate and do not fall under the Baron's category of Sakura Haramaki. Also I personnaly do not feel that the Okegawa pattern should apply to haramaki style armors, it just doesn't look right to me, also the reason to have an okegawa-do is for strength, by leaving the back split (or non-existant as in the sakura pattern) there is no support to keep the back rigid, the sides will close inwards on your ribs under a heavy blow.

2) Reference Effingham-dono's site: When a lame is called narrower in the Making a Do page, what does that mean?

If I understand correctly, "thinner" or "wider" refers to the exposed height of the lame, as laced to the other lames, i.e. more or less overlap. Actual lame height is determined by the height of the scales, and thickness is also determined by scales. (Unless the lame is made of a single plate, in which case it is a matter of the thickness of the plate, and any decorative leather an/or lacquer applied.)

3) What distinguishes a Japanese okegawa-do from, say, an earlier period European breastplate/backplate combo?

Alot, functionally it is the difference between a curass assebled from plates, and a curass made whole. Look very carefully at the hatomune do, (as well as both japanese armors and european ones) the okegawa do that are ridged to mimic the european models lack specific elements, like the portion of a curass that rises to cover the pocket between the shoulder and the pectoral muscle. Okegawa-do also do not have the drop waist in the front. The differences are much more prevalent when you look at the 16th century pikeman'r breast and backs without the other parts of the kit. You will see what I am talking about.

Do the laces for the Kuzazuri just punch through the bottom of the sendai or okegawa do?

They can, or they may be laced to leather, and that leather laced in strategic points to the do.

If the upper is of solid horizontal lame, how do the kuzazuri assemble?

I do not understand.

I hope this helps.

[qworg]

Wow, thank you very much! This is a great help.

As for the kuzazuri question -
when the top is of riveted construction, are the bottom Kuzazuri riveted? Or are they individual scales and then laced? If they are riveted, do they attach in the same manner?

And for styles of armors -
"Not looking right" - this is 100% what I'd like to avoid. I already get a bit of flak for going Japanese, so I want to do it right. For my first armor, would a Okegawa-do with solid rivetted pseudoscale lames be alright? Would I be better off hinging it or going with a ryô-awase dô that ties?

Thank you again!

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

qworg said:

You are certainly welcome.

...when the top is of riveted construction, are the bottom Kuzazuri riveted? Or are they individual scales and then laced? If they are riveted, do they attach in the same manner?

Ah I think I understand what you are getting at. When one speaks of a riveted do, they are refering to the method that the lames (laced rows of scales or solid plate lames) are attached to one another, not the method of securing the scales together to make a lame.

A riveted (lame) do, made of iyozane scales (laced together) would likely have kusazuri made of iyozane lames (laced), those would be usualy done with sugake odoshi lacing (wide spaced) but might be laced with kebiki-odoshi (close spaced) if on a fancier armor. On a further note, the kebiki odoshi lacing seems to have been used frequently as the lacing attaching the uppermost lame of the kusazuri to the bottom of the do on all but the bottom grades of armor.

For my first armor, would a Okegawa-do with solid rivetted pseudoscale lames be alright?

Okegawa do, with riveted lames is very period, including "pseudoscale".

Would I be better off hinging it or going with a ryô-awase dô that ties?

That is a tought question, a hinge seems to be a good choice to mimic historical models, however Japanese armors did not stand up very well to repeated heavy bludgeoning without needing repair. A common recommendation is a piano hinge, (unless you want to construct proper hinges from end tabs of the lames themselves) however if you take heavy shots to the left side it will probably warp and distort enough to bind opening and closing the do. I myself have been bad in this regard, mine is hinged with a panel of leather, and a single heavy brass hinge also helps keep it in alignment. While not period, it has the advantage of durability for SCA combat. I have seen several that are of ryo-awase-do style and might look into that in the future, at the very least it would have given me the "slop" I need to accomodate my love for food. ;D

[qworg]

Thank you!

Just a few more:

1) Is any psuedoscale pattern acceptable for any era?

2) For SCA combat: Manchira, wakibiki, both or neither?

Thanks again! You've been an enormous help.

[Kitadatedenka]

I'll have to disagree a bit with Takeda-dono.

Barrel plastic can indeed be reshaped, though it generally isn't worth the effort (The only place I have done this on my current do is at the top edges of the gyoyo). Similarly, it can be dished, but only while hot, and not with a hammer (I won't bother going into the technique). Again, it's not woth the effort. As well, the ones I get (which I purchase new) are virgin material.

I do agree that, strictly on material properties, I prefer kydex to barrel.

As for question #2, in my case it's neither.

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

qworg said:

1)Is any psuedoscale pattern acceptable for any era?

The good Baron would be the best to answer this question, he is most familiar with the date breakdowns.
Also if you are doing a okegawa-do of solid lames, sometimes the tops of the lames were sculpted and shaped, not to imitate iyozane or kozane, but in different patterns, this may also be a way to spiffy up an armor without alot of extra work. The trouble with doing psudeo-scale is that even if the top of the lame matches the profile of a true scale construction, you will lack the ribbing. Real pseudoscale kiritsukezane is almost as big a pain (just different) as true kozane construction.

A good link for the info is:www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch04.html

2) For SCA combat: Manchira, wakibiki, both or neither?

It is personal preferance, most SCA gosuko do not have properly padded watagami, so I see a good number who use Manchira or a gambeson vest sort of thing. Others are worried about the thrusts to the underarms, and only use some wakibiki. I personally have padded watagami (though not proper yet, they are about to undergo another refit before pennsic) and my shitagi consists of a tee-shirt... Unless I am trying for a totally proper look at a demo, the tshirt suffices quite nicely. Oh btw my do is lined with triggercloth so there is no things poking me. One of these days when I am real brave (insane) I might actually do the stripped down emergency/river way of putting on the armor.. (Now to figure out how to make an SCA legal helm that looks like a kote wrapped around your head...)

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

takedasanjuichiro said:

One of these days when I am real brave (insane) I might actually do the stripped down emergency/river way of putting on the armor...

Hanging from a tree?

I usually wear a manchira in Atlantia, rarely in the Outlands.

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

Kitadatedenka said:

...Barrel plastic can indeed be reshaped, though it generally isn't worth the effort...

Very true, I was being over simplistic in my answer. In my experiance it can be a bear to shape, unless I put in a very heavy shape change, it has a tendency to reset to the original curvature over time. (sometimes even within a few days) Mybe I need to take some plastic shaping lessons from you.

...the ones I get (which I purchase new) are virgin material.

Ah, when I said "virgin material", I meant it had not already gone through a forming and fabirication process (made into a barrel), not that it had been used.

[Kinoshita Takemitsu]

plastic can be extremely easy to shape.

Anyone heard of paper mache? use that to make your form. boil some water like you're cooking pasta. dip the plastic in until it becomes comepletely pliable but not liquid (puling it out too early can cause it to return to its 'natural' shape in time. lay it on your mold and gently form it. you can use your fingers (i've done it and can testify that it was a bad idea at the time), the end of a screwdriver, my fasvorite is the small end of a body working hammer.

Remember plastic offers much better protection in compound curves than in simple curves. so don't be afraid to put alot of detail into your mold

one more thing. allow it to cool slowly. this will prevent it from returning to its 'natural state'

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

ccartee said:

plastic can be extremely easy to shape.

Some can, are you talking about barrel plastic or abs and kydex? Kydex is a dream to work with, especially if you have a electric oven with good temperature control.
The key to working with any sort of dry heat device and ABS or kydex is to monitor the temp closely, avoid "hotspots" and to keep the temperature below the point where the bad fumes realy start comming out of the plastic. (Nearing flashpoint... those fumes are flammable!) I forget the exact settings but I think the last time I did kydex it was about 280-310 degrees F.

...Anyone heard of paper mache? use that to make your form...

I have not tried paper mache for it, generaly most of my plastic forming is not imparting a deep bowl shape, it can be done (did a jingasa out of kydex a while back... one of the fancy edo ones, but it got lost in one of my moves ) In my experiance the very deep bowl shapes need a substansial form (wood or metal), since the soft plastic needs to be stretched over it (unless you want wrinkles) and not something easy for someone just starting out, it's fairly complex and requires you to make special forms. (maybe out of paper mache)

Remember plastic offers much better protection in compound curves than in simple curves. so don't be afraid to put alot of detail into your mold

A compund curve in just about any material will offer greater rigidity. Heck, it even works with aluminum foil.

[Kinoshita Takemitsu]

I've used Barrel plastic so far. I'd love to be ab le to afford to work with Kydex.

The whole 'hot spot' reason is why i use boiling water. less hot spots.

Mostly with the whole complex curve thing i was making a dig at Dark victory's armor which i've heard many a horror story and injury report about.

[qworg]

Wow, thanks again for all the help everyone - I'll let you know how it goes.

I will probably have more questions later of course. =)