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Post by Yamamori on Jan 9, 2005 8:37:29 GMT -5
I plan to make a formal hitatare (not daimon, &c.) outfit for an A&S project, (which will be a part of my entry in the Baronial Coronet A&S Tourney). However, it seems that this would, if period, require that the ties be white. As I am not a Knight, I wonder if this might be seen as presumptious. (If you cannot understand the problem, see the excellent photos in the 'Hitatare (kamishimo) sugata' entry in the 'Men's Outfits' chapter of the most excellent www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.htmland all should be clear.) Do any of the good gentles here have informed opinions on which would be the least offensive, -To knowingly recreate something in an incorrect manner, or -To correctly recreate a garment which, while not technically violating the custom of the White Belt, might offend members of the Chivalry or be taken as an infingement on their badge of honor? Also, if any of the members of the Chivalry might give their opinions on the matter, or any might know of some common practice in regards to this matter, I should be most grateful. Yamamori/ Corrius.
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Post by rjsimmons on Jan 9, 2005 9:29:36 GMT -5
I plan to make a formal hitatare (not daimon, &c.) outfit for an A&S project, (which will be a part of my entry in the Baronial Coronet A&S Tourney). However, it seems that this would, if period, require that the ties be white. As I am not a Knight, I wonder if this might be seen as presumptious. This would indeed be a faux-pas. This is an area where 'period' has to bend to fit the confines of the Society. The white belt is restricted use. (If you cannot understand the problem, see the excellent photos in the 'Hitatare (kamishimo) sugata' entry in the 'Men's Outfits' chapter of the most excellent www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.htmland all should be clear.) Do any of the good gentles here have informed opinions on which would be the least offensive, -To knowingly recreate something in an incorrect manner, or -To correctly recreate a garment which, while not technically violating the custom of the White Belt, might offend members of the Chivalry or be taken as an infingement on their badge of honor? If you are a squire, make the sash red. If not, go with a solid, complimentary color. Avoid white, egg shell, off-white, cream, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera... Also, if any of the members of the Chivalry might give their opinions on the matter, or any might know of some common practice in regards to this matter, I should be most grateful. There is no common practice, but if you knowingly and willingly violate a Society rule/tradition, expect a personal visit with the Crown and/or the Chivalry. My suggestion is to utilize a solid, light color that matches the brocade in the hitatare (if you intend on using brocade) and indicate in your documentation why you had to deviate from traditional Japanese practice.
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Post by raito on Jan 9, 2005 11:55:33 GMT -5
I would say it depends on whether or not you intend to wear it. Simply displaying it should cause no problems.
If simply making it were presumptuous, then all Knights would always make their own.
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Post by Yamamori on Jan 9, 2005 19:29:20 GMT -5
...If you are a squire, make the sash red. If not, go with a solid, complimentary color... Thank you for your comments, good sirs. The root of my uncertainty is that this is not a sash or obi - that is obviously close enough to being a belt - this is the ties, all 4 of them, on a hakama. The only knight with a Japanese persona I have ever seen in garb is Sir Tanaka, whom I have had the honor to serve at Pennsic on a number of occassions, and as I recall, he wore a white obi under a hakama with ties made of the same color as the rest, and his squires wore red obi. Thus, in my limited experience, Chivalric rank was indicated by the obi, not hakama-no-himo, and by extension the hakama himo, being not a "belt" but rather a series of cloth ties, would not be governed by the convention of the White Belt. Thus, were I to make and wear such an outfit, I would not be violating a Society rule or tradition. Nevertheless, it can be seen that you honored gentlemen agree that for a gentle not of the Chivalry to wear anything white wrapt around the body would be problematic, and I certes have no desire to be a bother to any segment of the population of the Knowne World, particularly Royaly and the Chivalry. Again, my thanks for your considered opinions.
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AJBryant
New Member
甲冑師 katchuu-shi
Posts: 1,972
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Post by AJBryant on Jan 10, 2005 17:12:26 GMT -5
That's a problem near and dear to my heart.
Sigh.
I've talked to garb laurels, knights, and knights who are garb laurels. And also some other folks who *truly* grok Japanese garb.
There is no concensus. Some people say "make them authentically." Some say "Don't piss off the knights -- it looks like a white belt." There's no clear majority in who says what. Some knights have no problems with it, some do. Some garb folks do, some don't.
One area that you may seriously consider: if you don't fight, you might be more able to get away with the white ties, as people who know you won't think anything is being said; but if you DO fight, you might be sending a wrong signal.
My standard policy is to err on the side of caution. I use ties in complementary colors to the hakama fabric (e.g., a dark blue brocade hakama with gold and red and green floral design got solid dark blue ties).
Tony
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Post by Yamamori on Jan 11, 2005 9:09:27 GMT -5
Thank you, Effingham-dono.
By the way, have you received a message from me recently? I know how many of us write to beg help, and don't expect a speedy answer, just I've been having a bit of trouble at this end & wonder if I need to re-send it...
Also, any suggetions for a good source of brocade Over Here?
Thanks again. Yamamori/ Corrius
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Post by raito on Jan 11, 2005 10:00:52 GMT -5
Heck, I see lots of people using bags with a shoulder strap and I think, "There CAN'T be that many Masters around!" ;D
And I agree, there's little concensus.
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Post by Masahide on Jan 11, 2005 17:51:35 GMT -5
If you don't mind my opinion.... I would say it depends on whether or not you intend to wear it. Simply displaying it should cause no problems. I would agree with this. If you don't plan on wearing it, make it white...then become a knight. If you do want to wear it, make it with a complementary color, and simply document why you varied from period practice. I have rarely run into problems with judges due to this. After all, stating "I made it with something other than silk, because I couldn't afford the silk brocade" is a perfectly acceptable item in your documentation within the Outlands. Laurels have impressed upon me that Knowing that it should have be slightly different, but was modified for a reason, is one of the most important things about doing A&S. Masahide
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AJBryant
New Member
甲冑師 katchuu-shi
Posts: 1,972
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Post by AJBryant on Jan 11, 2005 18:09:01 GMT -5
No, Corrius, I've not had anything. Are you sending it to my new address, or the old one?
The current one is < ajbryant (at) bloomington.in.us >
Effingham
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Post by Yamamori on Jan 12, 2005 11:01:50 GMT -5
new address, or the old one? Oh, didn't know there was a new one. Thanks - will re-send. C/Y
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Post by Yamamori on Jan 12, 2005 11:07:00 GMT -5
If there is no concensus on this, shall we, who are interested, present, and in some cases knowledgeable, decide?
What does eveyone here think? White ties on the hakama for knights only? Is adapting to the SCA's traditions or historical accuracy more important to you?
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Post by Masahide on Jan 12, 2005 15:10:25 GMT -5
What does eveyone here think? White ties on the hakama for knights only? Is adapting to the SCA's traditions or historical accuracy more important to you? Given some of the attitudes and personalities that are present in the SCA, and the relative minority of Japanese personas and/or knowledge of period Japan I think it is best to bow to SCA's traditions, even at the expense of historical accuracy. I believe it to be unwise to risk alienating (or further alienating) the SCA Japanese community from the rest of the SCA. With that being said... If you never intend to wear a garmet, or are only intending to use it for A&S competitions/displays/etc, or fulfill the SCA requirements for wearing the questionable item (i.e. Knighthood), I think you should make it historically accurate. If worse comes to worse, you could always give the item to someone eligible to wear it as a gift, or complete a whole garmet, and give it to the crown, etc. Masahide
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Post by rjsimmons on Jan 20, 2005 14:42:23 GMT -5
If there is no concensus on this, shall we, who are interested, present, and in some cases knowledgeable, decide? What does eveyone here think? White ties on the hakama for knights only? Is adapting to the SCA's traditions or historical accuracy more important to you? White belts/sashes/baldrics/etc. are specifically reserved for the chivalry. That is a registered item for the SCA and should be honored, no matter what was historically done. The SCA is not a true "recreation" activity and as such, does not depend 100% on authenticity. We strive toward historical accuracy, but certain things have to give. That is why we fight with bar grills, rattan, gauntlets, etc. To have such disregard for an established Society practice, is to show disrespect to/for that Society and their customs. Several good suggestions have been posted with regards to the obi/hitatare question. If the garment is meant for display only, make it historically accurate with a white belt. If it is intended for wear, and the person wearing it is not a member of the chivalry, then utilize a different color.
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Post by Yamamori on Mar 10, 2005 22:23:23 GMT -5
rjsimmons,
If you understand that "hakama ties" and "obi" are not the same, then I understand that your opinion is that hakama ties qualify as a "belt/sash/etc.", despite being of the species of garment-closures to which buttons and zippers belong.
Of course, if this is the general consensus, it would be wrong to wear such if not a knight. Several people have said that this was their opinion.
However, Effingham-dono has said that he is undecided, and I thought that as we are a community of Japanese personae for the SCA, this was a good forum to come to a consensus.
Does anyone here have any opposition to making it the custom of the members of this board to equate hakama ties with "belt" for the purpose of showing rank in the SCA?
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Post by Please Delete on Mar 11, 2005 0:33:44 GMT -5
I'll just throw my two yen in.
I don't believe that white koshi-himo (the ties on hakama) should have any color restriction. I have never had anyone confuse them for a belt when I was wearing them. I wear my 'belt' (an obi) underneath.
That said, I have only one pair that have ever had white ties that made it to an event, and that one usually is worn with noushi or kariginu as sashinuki, so it isn't a problem. I have one off-white to tan pair, usually under armour.
However, most knights I've met face to face have no problem with it, but I haven't asked recently. I have written to the Laurel Sovereign at Arms in the past to ask for a clarification, and never received a response. Once the new Laurel gets settled in, though, I might try shooting it off again, since they are supposed to be the authority on such things.
I would rather people did white koshi-himo and then tie a belt over it to cover it if it offends people. That way you at least have the right garment, and can be non-period in the SCA, if they make you, but still have it for doing it 'right' elsewhere.
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