tnaff
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Post by tnaff on Oct 5, 2005 23:41:23 GMT -5
Hi! I'm Tomi and I've been in the SCA oh about 8 years but it's taken me this long to get into a Japanese persona. (I'm currently a Gitana Caló from Spain) And it's still in major development! I haven't gotten the pattern yet, which I'm aware is very straightforward, as are many of the seams... ^_~ I've been reading Sengokudamiyo like the bible of Japanese personas and I have Lisa Dalby's KMONO. I was wondering though, in short hand, if there's any specifics I should pick up first before I start construction of my kosode. Such as fabric color and pattern? I'm going for 16th century but I just want to know if there was anything then privy to that period of dress? I know of course it will made of silk or cotton. Anything else? Any help kindly appreciated!
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 6, 2005 0:49:46 GMT -5
Hello Tomi! Sounds familiar. I have two personae myself, the Japanese one being only three years old. ;-> Both good places to begin. Construction-wise, kosode are mostly pretty easy. I say mostly, because the collar can be a little tricky for some. About a year ago, I perceived a knowledge gap so I leaped into it and did a web page on kosode construction geared specifically to novice sewers. www.geocities.com/wodeford/KosodeMadeSimple.htmIt includes links to actual surviving kosode from the period you're looking at. If you're male (I can't tell from your name), please do not be scared away by the pictures of me - it's a unisex garment. In fact, most of the surviving examples are known to have belonged to men and they're as colorful and highly decorated as you can possibly imagine. Big honkin' butterflies and flowers, embroidery, gold leaf, even! Depending on your personal tastes, you can go for Zen sobriety, Momoyama glam, stripes, plaids, piecework. Or combinations thereof. I'm going to be leaving town Friday and be off line until I get back Monday, but if I can be of any assistance, please drop me a line and I'll answer when I return. Be sure to browse some of the other threads on the various boards - there's lots of interesting stuff out there that you might find useful. Saionji no Hanae
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madyaas
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Point Lobos
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Post by madyaas on Oct 6, 2005 11:31:26 GMT -5
While I did a kimono rather than a kosode, the techniques are the same, and I have to say, it's very easy to do if you have some practice at sewing. The only tedium would be sewing a lining for the kosode if that's what you want.
The collar was tricky because it needs to curve around a bit to join the body panels. If you have sharp corners where it attaches around the neck, you get odd folds and dips in the fabric, a lot like you get when you hold a piece of cloth in one spot and let it hang (from what I found).
It's tricky to describe, and takes practice to do. It's nothing to feel daunted by though. If you've done collars before, the whole garment should be a breeze.
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Post by Inoue Tsukiko on Oct 10, 2005 20:56:19 GMT -5
Oh but I have questions too! I've been skimming through the threads and replies on modifying modern kimono for period, and I'm still at a loss. My problem is that I use modern Japanese clothing so much between dance, kyudo, and kendo that when I have the option of being able to afford the fabric and all the other goodies to make something period and buying a set of arrows, a new shinai, a pretty obi... well you can guess what wins and it isn't my SCA wardrobe. I am working on making a pair of hakama. True, I already have modern hakama, but I won't use those outside of the dojo. The nice pleats must stay where they are so I have less work to do taking care of my equipment! I know my kimono are modern. I bought them and use them as such. At the same time, I can see the glaringly obvious differences between modern and pre-Edo, and so I tend to go to events slightly uncomfortable in my modern kimono even though I know its foolish to be so troubled. So, any ideas on how I can de-modern my kimono for SCA and still have them available for today? Or is this a time to just learn to get over being troubled? Thank you kindly.
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Post by Inoue Tsukiko on Oct 10, 2005 21:16:28 GMT -5
Whoops! Sorry! I meant to post my prior post as a new thread.
As to kosode collars, I've found what works best for me is to keep my hand under the collar as I'm pinning it. Giving it a rounder form to mimic the neck. Sounds odd, but so far its worked, and lays flat as its supposed to when not being worn.
I'm not certain how rounded it can go though. Is there a too rounded?
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 10, 2005 21:43:42 GMT -5
The following is my own personal opinion and does not dictate what you should think. There are LOTS of people going to SCA events in modern kimono. They may not know better, they may not care, they may not have the good stuff finished yet or budgeted for, but they want to come out and play and it's (pun intended) something to wear.
I feel that's like going to an event in your prom gown. It ain't medieval and no amount of wishing will make that so. You already know that. However, that is not a decision that I can make for you. YOU are the one who has to decide what your time, budget, skills, involvement level allow you to do and how far you want to go in terms of getting it right. We all make compromises of some sort to do what we do.
Now, as it happens, a young lady in our group just picked up some modern stuff at auction for a song and came to me and asked whether we can modify it sufficiently that she can wear it for 12th Night.
Modifying modern kimono involves a lot of issues. I own two modern kimono. There is no way a person my size can wear a modern kimono built with modern kimono fabric and have it fit correctly because the scale will be completely wrong for the size of my big American body. One of the vintage kimono I own is a man's kimono because it's as wide as it's gonna get and the sleeves still hit me mid forearm. It's beautiful and I'll wear it as fancy loungewear, but it does not get worn at events.
How big are you? How does your kimono fit. Do your sleeves cover your arm to the wrist? If not, they're going to be too short and everything is probably going to be too narrowly proportioned.
What period are you trying to do? If I am interpreting your name correctly, you're female. (If not, I apologize in advance!) Momoyama period is about as close to modern as there is: No hakama for ladies. Skip 'em unless you're deliberately doing boy clothes. ;-> Layer a kosode or two (and layers can be faked with eri sugata as I'm sure you know), wear a third as an uchigi or "coat."
Any sleeve layer that is visible (i.e., the outermost one) should reach your wristbones and have a curved front edge - modern kimono have square sleeves. No furisode either - pretty, but way too long for our period.
Skinny obi. You're going to have to make one. Get a piece of 1" nylon webbing long enough to knot at your waist with the ends hanging to about your knees - cover it with some pretty fabric. The webbing will give it the body a heavy brocade would have and you can still use a finer weight fabric. Your total outlay at the fabric store for the materials to make this type of obi shouldn't be more than a few dollars.
Luckily for my friend Una she is teeny! We can tweak the yukata she bought and use it for an inner layer. The pretty rinzu one is too small, but has some embroidery on the collar that is just stunning. I have suggested to Una that she think long and hard about whether she wants to keep it as it is or consider cutting it up and piecing it together with another silk (they did this in period, often with beautiful results). If she decides she cannot bear to cut up the rinzu, I will not blame her. It's lovely in its own right. Ultimately, however, her top layer is going to be something we make for her with the correct scale for a Momoyama uchigi. As long as that's on, nobody's going to see the sleeves of what's under.
Theoretically you could turn your sleeves inside out, run a curved basting stitch around the forward sleeve bottom, then turn them right side out. To return it to pristine kimono form when you want it for dance or festival wear, snip the thread and pull the stitch out. However, I suspect that unless you are very slender, the proportions are going to look too modern.
And we haven't even gone into the stylistic differences between modern and pre-1600 textile decoration.....
Feel free to keep asking questions - if we can help, we will.
Saionji
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Post by Inoue Tsukiko on Oct 11, 2005 17:14:25 GMT -5
I do believe you told me exactly what I needed to hear, and thank you. While I can’t bring myself to tack the sleeves into a more rounded form on my more modern kimono I do believe I can make something work regardless. How big are you? How does your kimono fit. Do your sleeves cover your arm to the wrist? If not, they're going to be too short and everything is probably going to be too narrowly proportioned. Yes! My kimono all fit, and those few that are slightly short in the wrist to wrist department… I’ve learned how to hide it, or live with it. What period are you trying to do? If I am interpreting your name correctly, you're female. (If not, I apologize in advance!) Momoyama period is about as close to modern as there is: No hakama for ladies. Skip 'em unless you're deliberately doing boy clothes. ;-> Layer a kosode or two (and layers can be faked with eri sugata as I'm sure you know), wear a third as an uchigi or "coat."No need to apologize I am female, but I do believe I’ll deliberately wear the boy clothes ;-> I look good in them. Yes, the Momoyama period is my aim. Layering is my friend! Especially in Minnesota. Faking layering is also my friend. Minnesota ;D The pretty rinzu one is too small, but has some embroidery on the collar that is just stunning. I have suggested to Una that she think long and hard about whether she wants to keep it as it is or consider cutting it up and piecing it together with another silk (they did this in period, often with beautiful results). I would dearly love to read and see the information on piecing. And we haven't even gone into the stylistic differences between modern and pre-1600 textile decoration.....I have come to the right place!
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 11, 2005 17:39:10 GMT -5
There are some examples of extant garments, including things that are pieced both in large blocks and a smaller "crazy quilt" sort of thing over on my web page: www.geocities.com/wodeford/KosodeMadeSimple.htmI love the red and white dan-gawari (checky) one with the gold leafed flowers..... S.
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Post by Inoue Tsukiko on Oct 11, 2005 20:00:30 GMT -5
I love the red and white dan-gawari (checky) one with the gold leafed flowers.....
Now that is lovely. Absolutely lovely. Gives me a very good idea for a basket full of pieces of this and that left over from quilting to finally have a home.
Thank you!
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 11, 2005 20:13:49 GMT -5
In fact, the ONLY thing holding me back from trying to make one like it is that red dyes are often really fugitive and I'd hate to go to all that trouble and end up with a dye run....
Saionji no silkaholic
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AJBryant
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甲冑師 katchuu-shi
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Post by AJBryant on Oct 11, 2005 21:47:41 GMT -5
Drycleaning is your friend.
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 11, 2005 21:53:49 GMT -5
You're helping!!!!!
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Post by Nagamochi on Oct 11, 2005 22:40:40 GMT -5
Sing it with me!
D-Y-E and R-U-N! Dye run!
This coming from someone who's allergic to beer, Nagamochi
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Post by Nagamochi on Oct 11, 2005 22:46:34 GMT -5
On a more serious note about drycleaning.
I did a test strip wash-and-dry on a piece of fabric I picked up at Pennsic and it held up very well. Only problem I could see was curling on the edges and a bit of fraying. I'm curious if French seams and pleats will keep this in control, seeing as I'm making it into hakama?
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 12, 2005 8:29:48 GMT -5
Finishing your seams (e.g., French seams) is essential to prevent fraying. (I work with linen a lot, can you tell?)
Gerald of Ipsley imparted a useful hint this weekend - he uses straight pins and pins all his hakama pleats in place when packing his. It looked like a really good way to keep them crisp.
Saionji
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