My first garb, but first some questions...

[Saionji Shonagon]

There's my man, Sanada-san, ready to unleash some whoop-a** on the smelly namban. 'Scuse me while I admire the view.

Both men are wearing kosode (at least two that I can see on Cruise) and hakama. Oh, and if you look at Sanada-san's right hip you can make out the side openings on his hakama. (They're much less exaggerated than the ones in the photo I just posted.) You can also see how they poof out a bit just below the line of his waist ties. See the thread on How To Put On Hakama for why.

The reason Algren's sleeves look weird is that he's got them tied out of his way. Basically, you take a strip of fabric or spare obi and tie a figure 8 loop - the X will cross behind your back and the loops go around each shoulder. There's no way to roll up your sleeve in kimono or kosode, so that's how you get your sleeves out of your way for work, fighting, whatever.

You can see it in this still here on both Cruise and a couple of children


S.

[raycornwell2]

Awesome, thanks alot, Saionji!
Hey, here is my Hakama:

Now to figure out how to tie the damn thing right. how do I get that nifty square like thing on the back, I imagine it is some sort of knot, right? How does that work??

Also, I though Kosode were short sleeved. All of these kosode you have shown are rather long. That has been my confusion...

[Saionji Shonagon]

Yep. Those be hakama. Looks pretty good. All pleaty and everything.

Now to figure out how to tie the damn thing right. how do I get that nifty square like thing on the back, I imagine it is some sort of knot, right? How does that work??

The "nifty square thing" is called a koshi-ita and it's a stiffened board that's sewn into the back of the hakama. There isn't one on Eff-sensei's pattern. If I recall correctly, the general wisdom around here is that they're a post- 1600 stylistic innovation, because we haven't found any conclusive evidence of them before that date.

Also, I though Kosode were short sleeved. All of these kosode you have shown are rather long. That has been my confusion...

Kosode translates to "small sleeves" but that refers to the fact that it has a small, handsized opening at the front of the sleeve rather than to the sleeves being short. A decent fitting kosode should cover your arm to the wrist when your arms are hanging at your sides.

One of my minor peeves is the tendency of some of our SCA Japanese to buy vintage (modern, traditional style) kimono that was originally made for some strapping lad who was 5'4" and 130 lbs. The inevitable clue is that the sleeves are too short. It looks silly.

Instructions on how to scale a kosode to your body size are on my website at www.wodefordhall.com/kosode.htm

S.

[raycornwell2]

Your so helpful, Saionji-dono!

Hey, I have some pale yellow flanel material, and I was thinking of making the kosode out of that. WHat do you think? Any input? That material is all I have, so, since I can't use the material I have in mind till I buy it, I was thinking of making this pale yellow one, and at least I could wair it under my outer kosode.
What do ya think??

[Saionji Shonagon]

Hey, I have some pale yellow flanel material, and I was thinking of making the kosode out of that.

Mflggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! (The sound of Saionji biting her sleeve to keep from saying something really snotty to a man who flings around terms like "Hollywood Crap.") (It could be worse. It could be plaid. Or have Spongebob printed on it. Calm down.)

Hm. Better now. OK. As far as I know, the Japanese did have cottons toward the end of our period for certain types of garments, but I'm pretty sure they didn't do flannel, at least until Hello Kitty footie pajamas were invented.

It's your sewing time, it's free, and the color doesn't sound obnoxious. It'll be a good practice piece for fitting yourself and getting a rectangular collar piece around a curved neckline.

S.

[Please Delete]

As an Alaskan ex-pat, I would worry that it might be overly warm. Also, I don't know that the drape or color will work quite right--but if it is all you have to work with, then I recommend doing it as a test piece. Get the patterns and sewing down. Figure out how to do the collar and sleeves, etc. Keep in mind, though, that when you can get to it, you'll probably want to replace it with either a nice silk or linen kosode (the latter being really good for wearing around in hot or cold weather).

-Ii

[Please Delete]

makiwara said:

The "nifty square thing" is called a koshi-ita and it's a stiffened board that's sewn into the back of the hakama. There isn't one on Eff-sensei's pattern. If I recall correctly, the general wisdom around here is that they're a post- 1600 stylistic innovation, because we haven't found any conclusive evidence of them before that date.

I think that you have done a fairly good job to show that the 'koshi-ita' panel, at least, is pre-1600, although you still seemto see more without than with the panel. What we don't have good evidence for is exactly when it came about, what it came from, and when a stiffened board (the 'ita'--'koshi' being a term for the hips/lower back. e.g. 'koshi-himo', or waist-ties) was first used.

Oh, and it should be noted that the panel is usually trapezoidal rather than rectangular.

All-in-all, though, I'd leave it out unless you are doing a very specific project that calls for them. Leaving them off makes them more flexible.

-Ii

[Saionji Shonagon]

I think that you have done a fairly good job to show that the 'koshi-ita' panel, at least, is pre-1600, although you still seemto see more without than with the panel.

Is that where we ended that discussion? I've slept since then. I thought it was a plausible maybe.

S.

[raycornwell2]

Sheesh, ok, so I wont use the flanel material!
I was thinking of the color, and, well, the body of the fabric, and it will look all saggy, so, I think I want something a bit more crisp. I'll go with more duct cloth, I think, and something darker, like dark blue or red, or maybe stark white. Who knows, I'll jus have to wait till I am at the store to decide...

[raycornwell2]

But then again, a spongebob pattern might be really cool...
LOL!!

[Please Delete]

I would say white. Nice, bright, and very utilitarian--no worrying about if it clashes with whatever you make later!

-Ii

[Saionji Shonagon]

But then again, a spongebob pattern might be really cool...LOL!!

Have you been hitting yourself in the head with that bokken again? Then again, there's a fabric outlet near me that has these Chinese silk-rayon brocades in red and gold, green and gold, white and gold - if one looks closely, there are little "Hello Kitty" faces in the pattern. It's positively Satanic.....

Duck might be heavier than you need. I admit to being a silk-and-linen snob, but if cotton is what's in your budget I'm not gonna ding on you for it. Lightweight cotton for an underlayer will do you, something a little heavier for an over-kosode, hitatare or kataginu
.
To give the collar enough body, I've started sticking a strip of heavier fabric inside it and have had decent results. Your sewing store may have some sort of interfacing you can use, or if you have suitable scraps in the house, use them.

Saionji

[raycornwell2]

Hitting myself in the head with my bokken, well, no, but I did have a tree drop on me, the other day. Almost died.
But, I didn't.
All I got was an 8 inch thick oak branch hitting me in the head as the tree spun. It knocked me to the ground under the tree, and the 2ft thick trunk came down on me while I saw stars. Luckily, the tree landed in sucha way that the trunk bent over me, like a bridge. What a thing to see when I came to, seconds later!
Luck or fate, who knows...
I still think that the Branch to the head sucked, though...
No lasting damage, other than the fact I say some words and phrases backwards, from time to time...

Anyways, I like heavy garments, so, I think duck cloth will work. I like how rigid it is. Besides, silk is WAY out of my price range. I'll probably do an under kosode in white, and an over kosode in dark red, or dark blue. Or maybe black. I wair alot of black. Habbit of the roofing trade...

[Saionji Shonagon]

Hitting myself in the head with my bokken, well, no, but I did have a tree drop on me, the other day. Almost died.

Glad you're OK.

No lasting damage, other than the fact I say some words and phrases backwards, from time to time...

If that's for real and it continues, see a doctor about it, OK? Your brain is a precious resource. Yes really.

Anyways, I like heavy garments, so, I think duck cloth will work.

I think it'll drape well for what you intend, I just hope it's not too hot. And any of those colors would be fine, if you're going for that sober Zen simplicity thing.

S.

[tamayori]

In reference to the pic from "Last Samurai"-
The japanese fellow is wearing what looks like 'keikogi'-which isa thickly quilted kendo gi dyed with indigo..(as you use it, the indigo wears out-so beware the guy wearing the grey keikogi) (and never wear a keikogi over white kosode as a gambeson....ruined my first kosode that time, and it ran thru to my sportbra)

Tommy boy is wearing kimono that has the sleeves tied back. Basically you hold one end of a 2"wide sash in your teeth, then wind it behind your shoulders in a figure 8, tying it off in a bow in front, on whatever side you started with.(normally this would be your right side) this is how sleeves are tied up when one doesn't want to get their sleeves wet.

Last Samurai took place during the Meiji period-which is waay outta sca time--during this time, swordplay became more stylized,as samurai had no reason to actively war against each other, and due to the japanese embracing more of western mores, I think they tended to view "bushido" as kinda esoteric and anachronistic, and not the marks of "civilized" folk.

(no i've not seen the movie yet-'bollywood" movies
about history tend to get a lil silly for the sake of the film-and folks then tend to take it as fact. ie: Braveheart

Yea, I am curious how they did it tho-portraying the rebellion headed by Saijo Takamori...sometime I'll rent it)

but as far as your 'underclothes' I would assume a white narrow-sleeve "shirt " first, then maybe a sparrow-winged (the sleeve was curved on the underside- rather than square, sewn up to make a small openng, or 'kosode' 'small sleeve') then depending on time of year, either a kimono, then your hitatare, or just the hitatare for summer. course it depends on your period. And don't forget your Eboshi-all men older than 15 wore one-except monks,and pages not yet 15. (the shark-fin type was used in Noh, and shinto ceremonies, so sometimes you would see women wearing them)

Normally when i wear my hitatare i wear a kosode of white, then a kimono of cotton, then the hitatare. As my persona is that of Kikumaru-a young page, i do not wear eboshi, tho I do put my hair up in a chasen-gumi ponytail. (this way i can run around w/o having to deal with makeup-- ;D)

As for material-you can always use the flannel to line one of your kosode-say for fall or winter wear. Also I know it's not period, but i tend to use more cottons than linen-mostly cause it is cheaper, and takes starch very well-(yes i do <gasp> iron my kimono-then fold it flat,wrapping it in paper,and storing it flat in my dresser.
For events, I normally pack each ensemble in furoshiki-kosode,kimono, hitatare, or just hakama, tabi, and zori, a small wad of white paper folded, my tying sleeve sash, a flat saifu with my omomori in it, and a fan)