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Post by raycornwell2 on Oct 21, 2005 20:36:10 GMT -5
Hey guys, still in Cali, for now... I miss my armory!!! ... Anyways, I figure I have some time to work on my garb, and I want to make a hakama, yoroi hitatare (maybe), and tabi. But, isn't that a bit bare? Isn't there more to samurai clothing? I don't mean in styles, but, what did they wair for shirts? Is it like a hitatare, only without the sides open? If I just sew up the sides on a hitatare, would that make a japanese "shirt" (and what would a shirt be called, anyways??)? Also, in Effingham's site, it says that true 3-paneled hakama were made of, well, 3 panels, ruffly 15 inches. Since his pattern is a simple "ruff-and-ready" pattern, can I just cut his pattern into 3 parts to make it historical?? I checked your historical clothing site, Effingham, but I couldn't find a pattern... Thanks alot for any help on this!!
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 21, 2005 21:30:01 GMT -5
Hey, Ray! Missed you! Hope you're enjoying your visit up north. Either a shitagi or a kosode will do you. One has straight, narrow sleeves (good for wearing under kote!), the other has the kind of sleeves you'd see in kimono. Otagiri likes shitagi and has patterns up here: www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/img/shitagi.jpgwww.rhinohide.cx/tousando/img/easygi.jpgI have kosode instructions at: www.geocities.com/wodeford/KosodeMadeSimple.htmFor wear under hakama, they would not have to be as long as what we ladies wear, but you do want coverage below where the side slits on your hakama are. You could do that or you could do what I'm doing with mine - sew in false seams without actually cutting the fabric apart. Fold and press the fabric where you want the seam line to be, then sew - it eliminates the step where you actually have to finish the seam to prevent fraying and will still give you a correct look. That might be because the sneaky so-and-so stuck the hitatare and hakama patterns in the ARMOR miscellany - and doesn't have anything over in the clothing miscellany!!! Even though I know he's done layout drawings for other clothing because you can hunt them down in the "Files" section of sca-jml@yahoogroups.com Saionji
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Post by raycornwell2 on Oct 21, 2005 23:32:38 GMT -5
Thanks alot Makiwara! I was wondering, if I make the shitagi, can I make the sleeves wide like on the hitatare?
I will definately be doing your idea on the seems, and just making a fake seem. Sounds smart!
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 21, 2005 23:42:13 GMT -5
Then it wouldn't be a shitagi. Here's a picture of Otagiri-dono in his so you can see what the sleeve shape is like. If you want wide sleeves, make a kosode. The front edge of the sleeve is closed except for the bit you put your fist through. I'm not sure if there IS a man's undergarment with o-sode (wide, open fronted sleeves). Effingham-dono? Are you out there? Anybody else know? Can you tell, I'm still learning a lot of this stuff too! Just be sure that if you're using fabric that has a right side and a wrong side that the right sides are folded together. ;-> S.
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Post by raycornwell2 on Oct 21, 2005 23:50:12 GMT -5
I want large open sleeves, if I can get away with it... But, I'll look around.
I have seen some movies with wide open sleeves, but, I am willing to drop the hollywood crap, if it ain't period.
Thanks Makiwara, yup, I am brand spanking new to the clothing idea! Who'd a thought all this would have came from a desire to learn swordsmanship!
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Oct 22, 2005 0:07:20 GMT -5
Men's hitoe, shitagasane, and akome. Of course, that's OLD formal underwear stuff. With a hitatare, kosode is kinda required. Effingham
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 22, 2005 9:17:12 GMT -5
Then it wouldn't be a shitagi. Here's a picture of Otagiri-dono in his so you can see what the sleeve shape is like. Just a note. I don't believe that 'just a shitagi' would be worn outside of a war camp. I'm wearing mine in this situation because I am prepared for a weapons class that is to begin a short time later. So you only find me wearing the shitagi as 'outer wear' just before or just after I armour.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 22, 2005 11:12:52 GMT -5
With a hitatare, kosode is kinda required. There we go! ;D
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 22, 2005 11:14:11 GMT -5
I know you can dress in a civilized fashion. Sometimes. ;->
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Post by raycornwell2 on Dec 27, 2005 18:11:03 GMT -5
yay, thanks for the help! I am back in Missouri, so, I should be able to get on some things, again. Missed you all! Ok, so, I'll have to check for some pics of these: hitoe, shitagasane, and akome. Wide open sleeves, you say? Sounds like what I have been looking for.
*Another question, is Kosode worn under the hitatare?
Thanks!
By the way, I just finished hand sewing up the hakama, all except the ties. Started a few hours ago, and it went pretty quick! Gotta figure out how the ties work (how to tie, and just how long they need to be, etc.) before I feel confident enough to tackle them. I've already sewn the tops of the folds in place, just under where the ties will be, so I have an idea as to how they will look.
*One more question, is the sides of the hakama supposed to be so open (like 4inches at the top)? Does the kosode covers this from the inside?
Thanks alot!
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Dec 27, 2005 18:24:37 GMT -5
Yay! You're back! Missed you too.
*Another question, is Kosode worn under the hitatare? Yep.
Race you! My new nabagakama are all done except for tacking down the underside of the rest of the himo (waist tie).
Easy. Get some string. Wrap a piece around the requisite number of times for a front tie and tie it off, leaving a decent bit to allow for the difference in the size the final fabric knot will take up. Cut to size. Do the same for the back tie.
Yes. And yes. You want your kosode to be knee length, probably. (Be grateful you don't have hips like a girl either or those gaps would be a LOT wider!)
Saionji
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Post by raycornwell2 on Dec 27, 2005 19:31:17 GMT -5
Hey, Saionji!
Cool... Also, if I make bias tape ties that start from a piece of fabric 6" wide, does that mean that it will be only 1.5" wide after it is sewn into bias tape?
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Dec 27, 2005 21:29:43 GMT -5
Take that 6" strip and fold the outer edges inward until they meet in the middle. Press with an iron (unless you're working with something like linen that's happy to hold the crease you put in it). Then fold the strip in half and press again. This will give you a 1.5" strip with the cut edges of the long sides safely hidden on the inside. You can also fold the short ends inward and press them into place, then lay the center of the fold over the raw edge of the pleats and you're ready to sew it to the legs of your hakama.
You can make obi, eri sugata (false collars) or narrow bias tape using the same techniques. It depends on how wide your starting piece is, how much seam allowance you need to work with, how many folds you put in it and whether the folds contribute positively or negatively to the structure of what you're trying to make. I've made self bias tape that's only 1/2" wide in its final form. At the other extreme is the waist tie on the nabagakama I just finished which is a little over 4" wide.
S.
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Post by raycornwell2 on Dec 27, 2005 21:48:44 GMT -5
I think I will go with a wider tie, then. Hmmm, I still haven't found a shirt that I like... What is Algren wairing here, Hollywood crap?
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Dec 27, 2005 21:57:11 GMT -5
Ray, bear in mind that the outfits these men are wearing are from later than SCA period (note the big "winged" kataginu). However, it's a pretty good shot of hakama and kosode from the side so you can see how the kosode covers the hakama "vents." S.
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