Sakanouye no Tamuramaro - Myth or Real?

[fujiwara]

So I'm doing some random surfing on Japanese history, and stumble across this guy, Sakanouye no Tamuramaro, who the author claims to be African Negro, and was a sei-i tai-shogun and dainagon during the Early Heian. Do any of the Japanese historians know about this guy? The article I'm reading has the distinct ring of propaganda, as it contains rather outrageous claims regarding strong African decent in the Japanese based on outward physical traits (frizzy hair being one ?!?!!), and lacking any hard evidence, such as a mention in official records or other written works from the period. I would think that someone as high ranking as the dainagon and as not-Japanese as an African would have shown up somewhere, but I don't remember reading it anywhere. Someone please shine the light of truth on this!

[Please Delete]

The man probably existed. Being 'black'--that I have major doubts about. The articles I've found mostly quote early 20th century theories that the 'Asian race' (they often use the antiquated term 'yellow race') is a mixture of 'black' and 'white' peoples. This doesn't really match what I know, little though it may be, of the current anthropological theories of migrations across and through Asia. Regardless, I highly doubt that he was 'African'. He may have been a darker complexion--then again, the court was painting their faces white and I imagine anyone from the lower classes would have been considered dark in comparison.

I just don't see the facts. There are a lot of theories and conjectures strung out to form a hypothesis that isn't supported by the evidence.

But did he exist? Sakanoue no Tamuramaro did exist to the best I can tell.

[solveig]

Noble Cousins!

Greetings from Solveig! There are other places that a dark skinned Japanese could have come from. There are: Southern India and Austro-Asia. There are historical records of immigration from India and there are serious anthropological theories of Austro-Asian migration. As for the physiogomy of premodern Japanese. There are records of red haired Japanese and all sorts of other stuff out there.

[AJBryant]

The author is a freaking lunatic.

I met with someone while in Japan who was one of the "Tamuramaro was from Africa" loonies. It was total poppycock, and I have little patience for people like that.


Effingham

[Saionji Shonagon]

Wait, aren't we ALL African? Look at all those Younger Cousins who have littered Kenya and Ethiopia with their three million year old fossilized remains. (Pass the rice powder and nightingale poo. This girlfriend needs a touch up.)

Given that a Google of the name Sakanouye no Tamuramaro turns up hits which parrot the same material, I think you've stumbled upon a bit of Afrocentrist internet myth.

I just acquired a copy of DeBary's Sources of Japanese Tradition Vol. 1 at Moe's the other day. (Dang, I just KNEW it was going to come in handy!) Sakanouye pops up twice in the index.

P. 126 "Another outstanding figure of the period, General Sakanoue no Tamuramaro, who extended the imperial domains to the northern end of the main island of Japan, was of Korean descent."

p. 266 "In 801, the redoubtable commander Sakanoue no Tamuramaro (758-811) succeeded in conquering the Emishi and incorporating their land, which comprised Mutsu and Dewa Provinces, into the Japanese state. For this, Tamuramaro, who was the first to hold the title of sei-i tai-shogun or "great general for subduing the eastern barbarians" has also been celebrated as the first great warrior chief in Japanese history. Thus we read in an eleventh century war tale:

"Our court in ancient times often sent forth great armies. Although these armies destroyed many barbarians within the provinces [of Mutsu and Dewa], they never completely defeated them. Then Sakanoue no Tamuramaro was called upon to go down to Mutsu-Dewa, and he bequeathed his fame to myriad generations by conquering the barbarians throughout the six districts. He was like an incarnation of the god of the northern heavens, a general of distinction rarely to be seen."

The footnote identifies the quote as coming from Mutsu waki, in Hanawa, comp. Gunsho ruiju, vol. 20, p. 32.)

Frankly, I'm slightly more inclined to believe something that has "Columbia University Press" printed on the back cover than an internet article with no bibliography.

Now, if we can find evidence in a primary source that the "god of the northern heavens" looks like this.....

[madyaas]

That sort of stuff comes from the same people who believe Jesus was black due to descriptions of "wooly hair" (even though we all know that if he existed, he was Semitic (looking more like modern Arabs), not west African as many Afrocentrists believe). I read one source from "Proudblackbuddhist.org" (an afrocentrist buddhist org) which says things like: "For a Samurai to be brave he must have a bit of Black blood" Of course, they take it literally and believe it means you've got to be part west African. They show an image of a black Fudo-myoo forgetting that he is a wrathful deity and his color fits his dynamic nature (and his real color is almost always dark blue).

It also states: "Ainu traditions tell of "race of Black dwarfs" or Koropokguru (koropokkuru) which inhabited Japan before the coming of the Ainu. " It might be possible the Ainu could've met somewhere in ancient history people related to the Aeta, and the Andamese islandsers, who even with "wooly" hair and "black" skin are as distinct from Africans as Europeans are (and actually, they are said to represent one of the earlier types of modern humans). Of course, there's no evidence that the Ainu met them at all, although Wikipedia says that the Ainu share Y-haplogroup D with the Andamese islanders and Tibetans, as well as Haplogroup C3, common to the Russian far East and Mongolia.

I am bothered by Afrocentrist theories as much as I am by Eurocentrist theories and find the two both ends of the same frayed rope. What bothers me most about theories without evidence like the one you read about is that they attempt to lump all non-European people with dark skin and curly hair under one blanket, erasing cultural and ethnic lines in order to further a theory that "blacks" did this or that. Ignoring the fact that even within Africa, the people from West Africa are different from the Somalis who are different from South Africans, etc.

It's all reminiscent of theories that pop up every so often that say that this culture MUST be Hebrew, based upon scant evidence, like one page I'd read that said Filipinos were a lost Hebrew tribe because we have the word "salamat" (thank you) which is related to Shalom, even though salamat was brought by Arab traders and missionaries and comes from the Arabic word "salaam".

Now if these authors can prove without a doubt that Sakanouye no Tamuramaro and other "African" Japanese existed, then I shall rescind my statements here .

[fujiwara]

Saionji-hime: Thanks for that! I can just imagine this guy reciting Ezekial 25:17 as he went about smiting the Ainu. And, yes, Sources of Japanese Tradition, Vol. I and II are great books. I wish I didn't have to sell mine...

It is as I thought about the article, though...all bias, with no real evidence to support the argument.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Can we have Sam Jackson named a Living National Treasure?

I cannot help but remember the exquisitely groomed, excruciatingly polite young man with the dazzling smile who stands outside the Pak'n'Save in Emeryville. Every time I went to buy groceries, he was there, greeting me with a 150 watt smile and offering me a copy of the latest issue of the Nation of Islam paper. I always smiled politely and said "No thanks, not today." He'd always say, "Have a nice day, Ma'am," and I'd say, 'You too." It was very surreal and I am dying to know what he was thinking....

[southtownbluz]

Subjects like this really have the strong tendecy to rattle the bushes of hidden racists, so I often shy away from these debates, however, being a mixed american of african, white and middle-eastern ancestry, I find myself compelled to make a statement.

The term "Black" is used loosely. It doesn't mean necessarily West African. There are many countries that have genetic ancestry dating back to Africa, but it doesn't mean specifically west african. People have a stigma about Black, let's be honest. People in this country dislike Blacks, you can tell by the way they're treated both in America and in the world abroad, so any time Black is associated with another culture, people feel the need to preserve the purity of their ancestry by disassociating themselves from anything remotely connecting them to the Black race.

Why?

We are all people of equal importance. We should share in our collective culture. We are the same human species, and I hate it when people just blatantly defy any relation of such a fascinating culture, such as Japan, from having any cultural or historical link to anything "Black", as thought it somehow "taints" the culture.

Black truly is the bane of humanity, it seems.

To answer your question about Tamuramaro, I don't know. I'll do some research to see what turns up. Hopefully I can add something worthwhile to this conversation at a later time.

Take care guys!

- Tim

[Saionji Shonagon]

As an American mongrel (German Jews and potato famine Irish Catholics if it matters) who attempts to respectfully portray a 13th century Japanese within the framework of the SCA, I would say what I have always maintained: we do our ancestors* a disservice in making things up about them merely to fulfill our own wishes about the world as we would prefer it to be. To do so trivilalizes their lives and denigrates their achievements and yes, their failures.

*All of 'em, right on back to Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis) and the nameless Younger Cousins that preceded her. Yeah, I know, I probably watch way too many documentaries on cable.....

I very much look forward to seeing what your research turns up.

[madyaas]

southtownbluz said:

The term "Black" is used loosely. It doesn't mean necessarily West African. There are many countries that have genetic ancestry dating back to Africa, but it doesn't mean specifically west african.

I disagree with you, in an American context black does imply west African ancestry.

So, do you think it's a disservice to broad brush a people with one general label based upon skin color and hair and general facial features ?

I get labeled "Latino" all the time. My ancestry is English, Scottish, Welsh, French, German, Dutch, Spanish, and Malay/Indonesian (Filipino). Is it right to call me "Latino" just because I look it? Should I not be annoyed everytime I get labeled this? I've actually been corrected by actual Latinos who have said, in seriousness that I HAVE to be Latino because my last name is Spanish and I "look it", and that I can't be Filipino because I don't "look Asian".

I don't have a problem when things can be proven, but until it is definitively proven that Sakanouye no Tamuramaro was "African" (which is what this thread is about), I will say that this rings of Afrocentrist propaganda, just as Fujiwara suspects.

[kuroitora620]

From the Manyo Shu

The Lady of Sakanouye

It is other people who have seperated you and me
come my Lord do not dare dream of listening to "the in between" words of people
My heart thinking how beautiful he is
is like a swift river
though one dams it and dams it
it will still break through

That just shows how popular it is to discredit black people from doing anything worthwhile. Did you guys know the Arabs who were the first slavers had a slave post from west Africa all the way to Nagasaki?

No you don't. The poem his wife wrote reads like a story out of Othello, and it was not unusual for countries at the time to employ leaders from other areas, that way they do not have a close tie with the people. Hence the name"Sei-Tai" shogun, or barbarian. The Japanese during Tokugawa times had another name for barbarians Nanbanjin. Why is it so hard to comprehend that black people are not limited to basketball and other kuso? You guys say Jesus may have looked Arab, (thats why Im bi-polar) Where do you think Africa is?!!! Arabs are a mixture of blacks, whether they want to acknowledge it or not. Hell everybody today who isnt black is just a de-evolved black person who's pigment has changed to match his/her environment. Anyway, heres another thing to consider, why are there African names used in Japanese family structure? Akinnouye?


You know I'm tired of you guys labeling everything "Afrocentric." Because simply you can''t open your mind. Black people were everywhere during the context of the world civilization, even ancient China! Just like Africans they used Cowry shells for currency, oracle bones to predfict outcomes. There are even a few paintings of black tax collectors. You know in 1998 Chang Hsing Lang (google him) polled Chinese men and discovered that there DNA was the same as those of West Africans. I see that most of your arguments always include the fact that the people of time and Leaders were of the yellow race. Look closely at that statement, yes you are going to be nationalistic if your country is the target of constant invasion, but DNA dfoesnt lie.



www.edofolks.com/html/pub95.htm


BTW heres something else yall didnt know.

The guy who discovered Sakanouye was black, was a "white" Canadian historian.

[Please Delete]

So, am I one of 'them'? If so, what 'them' group am I being lumped into based on a small sampling of my views here and therefore everything else about me is apparently matched to your stereotype of those who oppose your views?

Sorry, you probably aren't quite that way, but that's my initial reading of your statement. My immediate impression is that you have had a lot of dealings with people whom you feel are anti-black. I hope we can put that aside though, and look at this from an historical position.

That just shows how popular it is to discredit black people from doing anything worthwhile. Did you guys know the Arabs who were the first slavers had a slave post from west Africa all the way to Nagasaki?

Do you have evidence of this? I'd be interested in knowing your sources. Japanese trade was heavily controlled up through the Heian period, and I'm not aware of any delegations outside of Korean or Chinese envoys. All foreign ships were required to adhere to certain requirements and first trade with the court. Individuals might then be allowed to buy anything that was left over. This seems to be the method of trade up through the Heian period. (See "Across Perilous Seas" by Charlotte von Verschuer, or "Japan in the Chinese Dynastic Histories: Later Han Through Ming Dynasties" by Tsunoda Ryusaku).

Now, we do know that people had migrated out to Australia as much as 70,000 years ago, and I believe that domesticated gourds were transported from Africa to at least Southeast Asia by about 20,000 years ago (I'd need to go back to see when exactly).

However, I find it difficult to picture as Sakanoue as 'black' any more than I could picture him as 'white' (although there is evidence of 'caucasian' peoples in East Asia, Japan, and even the Americas before the Vikings). He was potentially darker than the court Japanese--the Japanese court by the time of the Heian period was using face whitening, and I've seen some evidence to suggest that dietary malnutrition caused other issues with pale complexion. Those who worked in the provinces, in the sun, and doing actual labor, were likely more rough-hewn, tanned, and of a darker complexion.

In addition, Japanese writers of the time tend to use classical Chinese terms--they describe the Emishi as 'hairy men', although many of these same 'hairy men' were no different than the others in the Yamato polity. Mutsu and Dewa, on the edges of the Yamato polity's control, have been termed 'deserts' (see "Capital and Countryside in Japan, 500-1180", edited by Joan Piggott) in order to equate them with the western desert wastes on the edge of China. In addition, I don't see 'black blood' as evidence of 'black skin' any more than I see 'blue blood' evidence of the same. Blood as it dries has been, in some places, described as black. There are just too many things that I think it could pertain to.

When I look at the poem, I don't read into it what you apparently see. I see someone who has been separated by an Imperial edict. I see someone possibly lamenting the talk about her 'provincial' husband. As he was probably of 'Emishi' stock himself, Sakanoue was probably looked down on by the court for that. To assume it was because he was 'black' (as in, of direct African descent) is rather far-reaching.

As for names--I don't see the connection you are trying to make. Japanese names are consistent with Japanese language, which is in the same family as Korean.

I don't mean to belittle African culture. Read about Timbuktu--an amazing city that taught Mecca a think or two about scholarship. Look at the trade between the east coast of Africa, the Middle East, India, and Southeast Asia--it is incredible. However, to say that Sakanoue is 'black' (ie of direct African descent) sounds about as credible to me as to say the Japanese are the lost tribe of Israel. I can see no hard evidence to believe that he would have been black.

At most I'd probably go for less Korean ancestry, with potentially Polynesian ancestry, as I believe one of the theories is that early people came to Japan first from the islands to the south, and then later from the Korean penninsula from the north, but by the time he was around, the groups were so mixed that differences would have been slight, and regional differences between people were probably much more pronounced than their original ancestry.


-Ii

PS: Slavery predates the Arabs. They just had the major markets that Europe tapped into when looking for a new source of labor.

[Tatsuya]

madyaas said:

So, do you think it's a disservice to broad brush a people with one general label based upon skin color and hair and general facial features ?

I get labeled "Latino" all the time. My ancestry is English, Scottish, Welsh, French, German, Dutch, Spanish, and Malay/Indonesian (Filipino). Is it right to call me "Latino" just because I look it? Should I not be annoyed everytime I get labeled this? I've actually been corrected by actual Latinos who have said, in seriousness that I HAVE to be Latino because my last name is Spanish and I "look it", and that I can't be Filipino because I don't "look Asian".

Ah yes... I can relate to this situation. I am an American of Japanese decent. However, to some of those who have met me, I can appear to be Filipino or at times Latino. This is primarily due to my naturally tanned skin. Which is rather uncommon amongst Japanese (unless you're a コギャル [kogal] or a local from Hawai'i (GO HAWAI'I!). In addition to possessing the freak ability to grow facial hair one can understand their confusion.

Due to my physical appearance, I've had many people come up to me and speak Tagalog (as well as Korean ). I even ran into one girl (who had obviously experienced the same situations) ask me not to inquire whether or not she was Filipino because she was Micronesian. Imagine her surprise when I told her I wasn't Filipino either. ;D So I can empathize completely.

As for my thoughts on this topic - if we really want to break it down we're all quarks and leptons.

[AJBryant]

Oh, God.

Josh, you are much more politic and patient than I am.

I just have no patience for that crap at ALL.


Effingham