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Post by Please Delete on Feb 12, 2009 7:43:56 GMT -5
Well, I guess I should show what we unwrapped the other day: (Yeah, I'm technically not ranked to wear this outfit, but I couldn't resist) Here's a link if you want to look through the pictures we took: www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3272012208/in/set-72157605726232740/When I get a chance, I want to take measurements and compare them against Jidai Isho. Perhaps we can help people by taking patterns off of this set. Some interesting notes once we had acquired it: 1) The hakoe (back pouch) is sewn out, making me think 'ikan no hou', but I didn't think you wore uenohakama with ikan sugata. I'll see what I can find. In the meantime, we are debating whether to cut the current stitching and sew it up as an actual houeki-no-hou. Any thoughts? I'm always tentative about something like this, since it is a real garment, not one I just threw together. 2) The white asagutsu almost fit. My toes curl just a little in order to not be on the upper 'slope' at the front. I'm surprised that they are that big. On the bottoms, btw, are some large hunks of rubber. I'm not sure if I can find someone here in Bangkok to make slightly longer versions for me or not. 3) The uenohakama are (unsurprisingly) too short for me. However, they fit Abe-hime, lengthwise, and she has agreed to demonstrate them. One thing we noticed right off was the way the crotch went together: This leaves a lot of 'freedom' and is the same as in another book that we have, 「十二単のはなし」 ( Juu ni hitoe no hanashi). This prompted us to look at J.I.N. and we found that the pattern is the same, but it is a little hard to see because they line everything up and two of their strengthening cords are drawn as though they are attached to the central cords (the kaeri-machi). 4) The kanmuri is post-Heian. The ei is slightly off-center, which I would not have expected. 5) The rolled hems of the hitoe (and our other one--we checked both) are simply glued down to form a hem. That surprised me, but I guess it doesn't really affect the integrity of anything (probably strengthens it). If there are specific questions on construction, please let us know. As I mentioned, we are going to try to put together patterns. My current goal is to finish what I need to make the outfit 'complete', if not 100% period, and then start replacing bits with things I make in proper colors, etc. -Ii
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Post by Abe Akirakeiko on Feb 12, 2009 11:02:55 GMT -5
I want it on the record: I am willing to model buttless pants for the sake of historical clothing research. *pre-emptively smacks Hiraizumi-dono*
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Post by kurokamakiri on Feb 12, 2009 13:33:05 GMT -5
Heh. I have pictures of myself modeling Victorian bloomers...
Again, I say "heh".
Ii-dono and Abe-hime, thank you so much for these photographs and sharing your information.
Do I get a batch of homemade cookies or something, for having posted the link to the sale? *laughs*
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Post by Water_Tengu on Feb 12, 2009 18:28:26 GMT -5
I love the costume, but i have a few questions 1. what is that tassel in the front? 2. what are the shoes made of? 3. what is the hat made of? 4. what is the paddle you are holding?
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 12, 2009 19:00:12 GMT -5
1. what is that tassel in the front? 2. what are the shoes made of? 3. what is the hat made of? 4. what is the paddle you are holding? 1) I believe you are referring to the hirao. It is traditional court clothing. Originally part of an obi made via kumihimo on a takadai, this one is actually two parts. Take a look at this guy here: 2) The shoes should be lacquered wood, though it is hard to tell (because of the lacquer). They should be black, not white (and it looks like they may have been painted over--if so, we might be able to remove the white and make them black again) 3) The hat, or kanmuri, is lacquered silk, traditionally. Again, I assume it is silk, but the lacquering means it is hard to tell what is underneath. I wouldn't be surprised if this one incorporated plastic instead. 4) The 'paddle' is a shaku. Depending on its incarnation, I've seen wood, stone, and ivory variations, though wood is most common today. It is a remnant of the old court bureaucracy, still in use by Shinto priests today as part of the uniform. This page might help explain: www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.ch02.html-Ii
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Feb 12, 2009 20:08:07 GMT -5
*pre-emptively smacks Hiraizumi-dono* Too late. I like to think of these as the pants a fully-dressed person might wear in hospital to complement hospital gowns.
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Post by Water_Tengu on Feb 12, 2009 21:17:35 GMT -5
1. what is that tassel in the front? 2. what are the shoes made of? 3. what is the hat made of? 4. what is the paddle you are holding? 1) I believe you are referring to the hirao. It is traditional court clothing. Originally part of an obi made via kumihimo on a takadai, this one is actually two parts. Take a look at this guy here: 2) The shoes should be lacquered wood, though it is hard to tell (because of the lacquer). They should be black, not white (and it looks like they may have been painted over--if so, we might be able to remove the white and make them black again) 3) The hat, or kanmuri, is lacquered silk, traditionally. Again, I assume it is silk, but the lacquering means it is hard to tell what is underneath. I wouldn't be surprised if this one incorporated plastic instead. 4) The 'paddle' is a shaku. Depending on its incarnation, I've seen wood, stone, and ivory variations, though wood is most common today. It is a remnant of the old court bureaucracy, still in use by Shinto priests today as part of the uniform. This page might help explain: www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.ch02.html-Ii thank you Ii-dono
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Post by solveig on Feb 12, 2009 21:36:13 GMT -5
Ii dono!
Greetings from Solveig! First, the outfit is gorgeous! Second, since it's black, I suspect that you are indeed of sufficient rank to wear it.
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 12, 2009 21:46:52 GMT -5
Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! First, the outfit is gorgeous! Second, since it's black, I suspect that you are indeed of sufficient rank to wear it. I appreciate the confidence, but the patterned black hou and the patterned uenohakama, along with the excessively long kyou (have I mentioned how I really like the kyou?) would all be well out of reach of a 6th rank courtier. The great news is that when I make copies in my size, I can make them with plain fabrics Much easier to get, and less expensive to boot. Not that I wouldn't fudge it in a pinch. At least I now have something that if I ever need to do something fancy in court I can do it really well decked out! ;D -Ii
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Post by Abe Akirakeiko on Feb 14, 2009 23:02:03 GMT -5
Ii-dono and Abe-hime, thank you so much for these photographs and sharing your information. Do I get a batch of homemade cookies or something, for having posted the link to the sale? *laughs* Oh, you most absolutely deserve such a thing! ;D What would you like from Thailand (or Japan)? (If you want nice shot silk, we can certainly get that for you...)
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Post by kurokamakiri on Feb 16, 2009 13:16:07 GMT -5
Ii-dono and Abe-hime, thank you so much for these photographs and sharing your information. Do I get a batch of homemade cookies or something, for having posted the link to the sale? *laughs* Oh, you most absolutely deserve such a thing! ;D What would you like from Thailand (or Japan)? (If you want nice shot silk, we can certainly get that for you...) *blink blink* *blink* ANYTHING would be divine I am most fond of bats and the color red. (pssssst - I happen to speak with your apprentice sister daily )
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 17, 2009 2:06:33 GMT -5
It has come to my attention that I may have overlooked something of interest to people regarding what came--mainly, the hirao. The hirao (a 'kiri-hirao', meaning it is done in two pieces) is actually a cheat, as I believe I've mentioned. The originals would have been completely woven on a takadai, or perhaps more likely with a form of loop manipulation braiding ( www.lmbric.net/). Below are more pics to help people see what I mean. Click on any photo to bring up the website it is from (most are just from my flickr account): During the Nara and early Heian periods, these were just long, continuous braided belts or sashes, with relatively simple decoration. Here's a plausible example: [url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/277249621/[/url] [/url] Compare this to an extant scrap of a 'sash' from the Horyuji temple, around the same period (early Nara): [url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3052159609/[/url] [/url] Towards the late Heian period, the sashes grew more elaborate. I am not sure when, precisely, the idea of a two-piece hirao came into being, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a Heian period design. Here's an example from the Costume Museum: Here's one I found online. Notice how the fringe continues from the pattern above: (you can Google '平緒' for images to see more examples). However, a simpler way to do it is like the one we have. It still uses an ikat style pre-dyed thread to get the slightly fuzzy lines between sections, but the edges are simply trim, and the design in the center is embroidered on (I wouldn't be surprised if it is some kind of machine embroidery). This strikes me as something that might be very doable for some folks out there: Sorry for the fuzziness, but if you look at the original photo you should still be able to see quite a few details of the construction. Anyway, I thought this might be helpful. -Ii
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 22:20:28 GMT -5
My approximation of a late period hirao: The body of it is some heavyweight ramie, dyed with "dye-na-flow" fabric paint in an attempt to get the fuzzy borders between color blocks. The borders are some silk braid I had around. The embroidery is all just machine embroidery. The escarbuncle pattern I had, but the karakusa I had to create especial for this project. The fringe is just silk yarn tied on at the bottom to make a fringe.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2018 16:57:19 GMT -5
Our (myself and Her Ladyship Hara) approximation of a Bunkan Sokutai Sugata. There are several compromises made given that we only had 2.5 months to prepare the garments, when I thought I'd have a few years to work my way up to this outfit. I'm wearing sashinuki, not uenohakama. I'm wearing burgundy tabi and vinyl setta, not shitouzu and asagutsu. Other than that, I think we did a pretty good job. The hoeki no ho was Hara's work from black silk brocade, unlined for summer. The shitagasane is also Hara's work, made from some awesome orange-red silk she found online. It has the proper train, which you can see draped over my left arm. I am amazed that the kanmuri survived being worn. It is an antique that I took delivery of from Thailand just four days before my elevation. The lacquer is flaking off all over, and there were some breaks in the wood that support the tail, but we splinted and patched, and prayed. Compare to www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.ch02.html#bunkan-sokutai. Anyway, it is the closest I have ever come to being properly dressed for court. It was also very very warm.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 14:48:57 GMT -5
This short documentary on Kyoto Kumihimo was rebroadcast yesterday, so the video will be available online until September 26th, 2018. www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/vod/corekyoto/2029093/At about 10 minutes in, there is some discussion of sokutai and hirao. The ancient hirao shown is described as having karakumi structure, but it is not mentioned that it was probably created on the karakumidai braiding stand.
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