My new mon

[tengumoon]

I asked over on SCA-JML about name and kamon registration
I got some great assistance for the name (thanks Ii-Dono and Solveig and her publication NCMJ)

However I got no response regarding the kamon

So here is my request for assistance with the kamon
The concerns are: my local herald (and likely majority of other heralds in Australia) have no experience or knowledge of Japanese names or heraldry. They also do not have access to any documentation or books for referencing these.

I would like some help / advice on this process and how to go about referencing my chosen name / kamon and minimising heraldic bureacratics, objections and red tape.
The chosen name is Yamamoto Kenjiro Yoshimitsu - created from the info on Sengokudaimyo site. I'd like to know how I can reference / support this.

The kamon is a red sakura flower in an overlapping tomoe / spiral format of the petals. As visible below.

I have considered registering this as a fieldless badge as it really doesnt fit heraldic requirements.

The local herald has indicated that it will be bounced purely on the basis that it will be considered simply a red flower in heraldic terms and will clash with any other (red) flowers as well as any cinquefoil or quadrefoil heraldry (no points of difference).

This really bugs me (I know I am not the first to be miffed by the CoH!) as I want a simple kamon (not to mention I dont want it bounced simply because heralds cannot tell difference between a rose, a cinquefoil or a sakura).

Also I need some idea of how to reference this as well. My first thought is to show that sakura was a period mon and then that the spiral format was also used in period kamon.

Much thanks in advance for any ideas

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

I asked over on SCA-JML about name and kamon registration....
However I got no response regarding the kamon

Sorry, I must have missed that part

I would like some help / advice on this process and how to go about ... minimising heraldic bureacratics, objections and red tape.

Your do realize you are asking to deal with heralds... there is always bureacracy and red tape

The kamon is a red sakura flower in an overlapping tomoe / spiral format of the petals. As visible below.

I have considered registering this as a fieldless badge as it really doesnt fit heraldic requirements.

The local herald has indicated that it will be bounced purely on the basis that it will be considered simply a red flower in heraldic terms and will clash with any other (red) flowers as well as any cinquefoil or quadrefoil heraldry (no points of difference).

This really bugs me (I know I am not the first to be miffed by the CoH!) as I want a simple kamon (not to mention I dont want it bounced simply because heralds cannot tell difference between a rose, a cinquefoil or a sakura).

I hate to say it (I am not a fan of how the herald process works, but am one all the same) that your local herald is correct.

A rose, a five petaled flower, a cinquefoil, a sakura; do not look the same but are considered the same visually. That decision is from looking at a banner 1 km away and being able to tell the difference; or telling the difference on a tabbard 50 meters away. Most people could not reliably make the distinction, thus the rule.

The basic as-painless-as-possible way of going about registering a device or a bage is:
1. Pick out period elements and colors
2. Draw your idea
3. Take it to a hearald to do a conflict check
If it conficts, change it, good heralds will provide suggestions to try and keep it form gettign outta hand, then basicaly repeat step 2 and 3
4. If no conflict appears, then work on getting the fancy words worked out, arrange documentation, and submit it. I would be more than happy to work with you on documentation.

Concerning the field/fieldless items of badges
Badges in the SCA are a bit of a wierdness historically, livery and badges as we think of them in SCA were not registered historically, though some charges though (rose in spelndor, ragged staff with chained bear) did become protected by either the courts of heraldry but most often by the holders themselves. Badge 'protection' is an mainly an SCAism.

Since mon were generally used on all sorts of things, it was more often the shape rather than the color that was important, it was nto unncomon to see white banners with black mon, but on dark items them displayed in silver and gold. I registered black on white background, but have been known to use white on black background when the mood strikes me. (also have been known to use blue on white). My thought was thus, since it is impossible for me to register every color combination, I would register the cleanest version of my mon that would show up on a scroll... i.e. the black mon, the paper being white

Also if you are armigerious, or there is a chance you will be; register a device first, some kingdoms have some pretty strange rules, I am not sure of Lohac's traditions.

Now after reading all of that, lets assume you wish to go through the process.
For Fielded vs Fieldless...
Red charge on black, that isn't gonna fly, that whole color on color issue. I have seen some later period germanic and eastern europe style arms that have successfully gotten around this under the "regional style" clause, but trying to get the CoH to agree to the Japanese practice of that is probably futile.

As to fieldless, it could be done, however moving onto step 3...

Lancaster, House of:
The following badge associated with this name was registered in December of 1994 (via Laurel):
(Fieldless) A rose gules.
Important non-SCA badge

Conflicts with historical arms.

There are some ways to get around it, feel free to pm me if you would like some more help.

-Takeda

[Yamanouchi Eidou]

heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents/bruce/flower-rose.html

There's ...no difference between Hirayama's rendition of a cherry blossom (complete with five petals, barbing and seeding) and an honest heraldic rose. (Oriana d'Auney, July, 1993, pg. 17)

[Yamanouchi Eidou]

Also, this charge differs from a standard cinquefoil/rose in the following ways:

1.) The "Seed" area (center) is the same color as the petals. A standard flower will have gold in the center. Explicitly stating similar color (e.g.: A rose gules, seeded gules vs. a rose gules) may provide a step of difference.

2.) No leaves show. i don't know if there is a way to state the difference of an unslipped cinquefoil in blazon.

3.) Split ends. Again, I'm not sure if there's a way to blazon the difference.

If these were magically all doable, this provides you a solid three degrees of difference from a standard cinquefoil, which should be a starting point.

Also, along with Takeda, I recommend registering Sable on Argent and then doing artistic license everywhere else.

[tengumoon]

Thank you very much for all the input.

I have forwarded this info to another local herald who I feel is a little more open minded and much more Japanese aware...

Again thanks