Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 10:53:05 GMT -5
You see them in paintings and museums occasionally, but whenever I go looking for a picture of one I am struck by the fact that I have no idea what they are called. I'd post a picture of one, but...
I would call one a "banner stand". They are short, usually square, frameworks, rather like the four legs of a chair with no seat. Cross pieces traverse the center, and have holes through which the base of a banner pole or the haft of a spear can be placed. The pole or haft is then supported and sticks up vertically.
I've seen pictures of large ones (3 or more feet tall) for holding heavy banner poles, but mostly they seem to be about a foot tall or so.
Help, please?
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Nov 7, 2011 13:26:10 GMT -5
旗台 (hatadai) is the generic word for "flag stand." のぼり台 (noboridai) is the word for a stand for nobori-style flags. Google image-seach either one, and see if you can find what you're looking for.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 14:38:45 GMT -5
旗台 (hatadai) is the generic word for "flag stand." のぼり台 (noboridai) is the word for a stand for nobori-style flags. Google image-seach either one, and see if you can find what you're looking for. Thank you! Those are clearly the correct words. Image searches, particularly on "noboridai" give me plenty of pictures of flags and things intended to support them, but mostly all modern examples. I'm guessing the noboridai is just not something that typically gets called out in descriptions of of paintings.
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Nov 7, 2011 15:42:25 GMT -5
Hm. Probably not. Perhaps if you add a few words to the search to refine it. 侍 陣 戦国 合戦
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2011 8:53:03 GMT -5
Still no luck on the searching front. I guess I'll just have to be more careful in my browsing in the future. I have this image of a painting in my files, but no information about its provenance because I am a bad researcher. I'm guessing in this case, the stand would be a hatadai as it is supporting a hata-jirushi style banner.
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Nov 8, 2011 22:10:21 GMT -5
Oh, that's a shrine thing. That's not a normal flag thing.
What you usually had for flags was a stake driven into the ground and sticking out about 2 or 3 feet, and the base of the flagpole was lashed to that.
That thing is called a daiwaku (台枠) but that's corresponding to the word "chassis" -- as in tanks have 'em, cars have 'em, and flagstands have 'em....
Google image search 台枠 and see what happens (though you might tighten it with 黒塗台枠).
Here's the flag relevance: 錦社名旗
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Post by Yamamoto Morikazu on Nov 8, 2011 22:24:41 GMT -5
POrtable holes work AWESOME !
For inside. just make a cross thingy with 4x4 posts and a hole in the middle.
it isnt too hard to figure out. I would assume they would use what ever means would work for banner stands inside. Outside. Drive a pole in the ground and lash it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2011 11:25:39 GMT -5
I missed these replies when they were posted. I wish there was a better interface than the "recent posts" link, which only gives 20 results. Oh, that's a shrine thing. That's not a normal flag thing. What you usually had for flags was a stake driven into the ground and sticking out about 2 or 3 feet, and the base of the flagpole was lashed to that. I was mostly considering this for inside. I'm absolutely sure I've also seen them used for holding banners in portraits of generals and such. It seems hard to say where "old style stuff" and "temple stuff" separate sometimes. I've been told that karabitsu were also just temple stuff, but I've seen them in museums and reference works as general storage, too. The last one yields the best results, mostly sites selling supplies for festivals and fancy Shinto weddings. That supports the "temple stuff" idea quite a lot, I agree. I'm going to post a bunch of links here, because these shops sell tons of stuff we've talked about on Tousando. Kanmuri, shaku, little footed tables, floor pads for sitting, clothing, etc. etc. Don't bother with Google translate, literal translations of most of those things doesn't do much good. Anyway, I started working on this. Here's what I have so far. These parts are just dry fit. I still need to tune the joinery, glue together, and finish. Only 20 hand cut mortise and tenon joints! If I'd wanted to get really fancy, I could have cut everything so the tenons interlocked at the corners, making glue un-necessary.
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Nov 17, 2011 23:51:58 GMT -5
Spiffers! That looks nice. Did you make it to break down?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2011 9:30:40 GMT -5
Spiffers! That looks nice. Did you make it to break down? No. I decided I'd make a "real" one first, then figure out a more portable one later. If I'd make the joinery for the cross pieces so that the tenons went all the way through and were wedged, that would probably be enough tension to hold it together. They could also be constructed more like this kowaku I made, only rotating at the center instead of locked in place (and larger, of course).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2011 15:40:44 GMT -5
A friend of mine suggests "hatazäotate", if I understood him correctly over the phone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2011 15:40:37 GMT -5
Final picture, post finishing. I darkened it with tannic acid (tea) and iron acetate (steel wool dissolved in white vinegar), then finished it with boiled linseed oil. Here's what it looks like supporting a banner I made for our household:
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Post by Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa on Dec 4, 2011 16:42:13 GMT -5
That is gorgeous.
Have you considered finishing the pole in the same way?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2011 22:32:55 GMT -5
Thanks! Now that I have the design all worked out, I should be able to speed production using power tools. Well, that particular pole 'belongs' to something else, but I really should get another pole, or better yet, an impractically shiny yari.
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Post by Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa on Dec 5, 2011 1:29:18 GMT -5
I support the yari plan
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