|
|
Post by echigonoryu on Feb 17, 2012 21:03:24 GMT -5
As I was doing my research, I tried to look into what bathing in that period would have been like. Apart from that interesting video www.liveleak.com/view?i=9d5_1252957161 however, I couldn't find a lot of information, so I thought I'd drop by here and see if anyone knows more about the subject  Wiki told me that "Until the 19th century, the Japanese did not use soap, but rubbed the skin with certain herbs, or rice bran, which was also a natural exfoliant." I was quite surprised to read that, considering their fondness for cleanliness. Is it true, and if yes, any idea at all what those herbs might have been (or am I digging waay too deep??)? Also, has anyone read Hideyoshi Toyotomi's "Nyuto Kokoroe" ("Bathing Etiquette")? It sounds like a really good source of information, but I couldn't find any actual information on it online. Edit: Also, did thy actually use any perfumes/scents back then? I remember trying to find information on that, but with no success whatsoever  |
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 18, 2012 12:04:21 GMT -5
Wiki told me that "Until the 19th century, the Japanese did not use soap, but rubbed the skin with certain herbs, or rice bran, which was also a natural exfoliant." I was quite surprised to read that, considering their fondness for cleanliness. Soap is fat and lye. Think about it. As it happens, someone JUST gifted me with a copy of Inner Peace Outer Beauty: Natural Japanese Health and Beauty Secrets Revealed by Michelle Leigh. OK, as you know, the cleaning of the skin/hair/etc. would be done and rinsed BEFORE entering the tub. Rice bran ground to a fine powder would be put into a small silk bag (cotton will also do). Soak the bag in water, squeeze out the excess and rub the skin or hair gently with it. An alternative would be to mix bran with warm water in the palm of the hand and directly rub it onto the skin. Rinse with clean water. Ground adzuki beans could also be used this way, alone, or mixed with rice bran. Unfortunately, while the book does have a respectable bibliography, it is completely unclear how old some of the recipes are or what sources they came out of. I am familiar with the use of rice bran and adzuki bean treatments going back to at least the Heian period, as well as camellia nut oil for hair and skin, and brush warbler droppings for skin. There is also mention (in Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book, maybe?) of a custom of washing one's face with dew collected from chrysanthemums. Leigh also describes face and body washes using seaweed, pine needles, lotus root, citrus peels, cucumber, persimmon and so forth. Again, unclear how far back these go. They used incense to scent their clothing and hair. educators.mfa.org/objects/detail/7768?classification=Lacquer+works is an Edo period incense pillow. They do go back earlier - I know there's a Momoyama one in one of my books. There is room inside the box to place a burner. Not only would one fall asleep to a lovely scent, one would wake with scented hair. This image, taken from the Kyoto Costume Museum, shows a palace lady scenting her robes by draping them over an openwork basket with an incense burner beneath it:  You can also use dry incense as a sachet. I often stick a 50-stick box of MorningStar incense in when I pack my clothes, but Shoyeido sells ready-made ones. www.shoyeido.com/category/incense-sachetsIIRC, samurai might also scent their helmets before battle, to present a pleasing scent should their heads be taken. But what would I know of such things, being a sheltered member of the court? (And they call US effete.) |
|
|
|
Post by echigonoryu on Feb 18, 2012 16:56:23 GMT -5
Soap is fat and lye. Think about it. I thought about it, but not sure if I've come up with the right answer. Is it because they didn't eat a lot of meat? I am familiar with the use of rice bran and adzuki bean treatments going back to at least the Heian period, as well as camellia nut oil for hair and skin, and brush warbler droppings for skin. Warbler droppings? ??  Do you know what the benefit of that was? IIRC, samurai might also scent their helmets before battle, to present a pleasing scent should their heads be taken. But what would I know of such things, being a sheltered member of the court? (And they call US effete.) You do remember correctly ;D Many, many thanks for pointing me in the right driection!  It's amazing how considerate they were, isn't it? ;D quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/samurai_helmet_drawing.htmlwww.scentit.com/all_about_incense.htmlOnce again thanks a lot for all the information, it's extremely useful! |
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 18, 2012 17:12:02 GMT -5
I thought about it, but not sure if I've come up with the right answer. Is it because they didn't eat a lot of meat? I meant, why would applying vegetal compounds be less clean than applying fats (which could be oils from animal fat or plants) combined with a caustic to produce saponification? I am not making it up. I'm just not sure I'm brave enough to give it a go. www.immortalgeisha.com/editorial_nightingale_droppings.phpFound a passage on the chrysanthemum thing in Morris' The World of the Shining Prince, p. 177. The 9th day of the 9th month is the Chrysanthemum Festival, in which the Emperor and his court inspect the chrysanthemums in the palace gardens, enjoy a banquet, compose poetry, drink sake in which chrysanthemums have been steeped and view a dance performance. Chrysanthemums were believed to promote longevity. Bits of silk would be left out to cover the flowers the night before the festival and it was believed if one washed one's face with the dewy silk the following morning one would be spared the ravages of age. From a website with excerpts from the diary of Murasaki Shikibu: "Dear Lady Hyoé brought me some floss 2 silk for chrysanthemums. "The wife of the Prime Minister favours you with this present to drive away age, carefully use it and then throw it away."
May that lady live one thousand years who guards the flowers!
My sleeves are wet with thankful tears
As though I had been working
In a garden of dewy chrysanthemums.
I wanted to send it, but as I heard that she had gone away I kept it. " digital.library.upenn.edu/women/omori/court/murasaki.html |
|
|
|
Post by echigonoryu on Feb 18, 2012 18:35:47 GMT -5
I meant, why would applying vegetal compounds be less clean than applying fats (which could be oils from animal fat or plants) combined with a caustic to produce saponification? Right, thanks I'm the least knowledgeable person when it comes to types of soap/detergents. I just know that most of them dry my hands something awful!  I'm seriously considering trying it now - I'll hold you to blame!  And let you know how it goes if I do brave it! Back to incense - I'm trying to find out what woods/substances they used for burning during the Sengoku - any idea? It seems sandalwood is one of them, but not sure if that wasn't just for the members of the court (you should know, being one yourself )? |
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 18, 2012 19:45:33 GMT -5
(Sighs. Reaches for The Book of Incense.... Ah, well, I did need to take a break from hand sewing. )
The use of incense was among the many things introduced from China during the 6th century with Buddhism.
Common ingredients used for incense, either alone or blended:
Woods:
Sandalwood
Aloeswood, also known as jinkoh.
Plants:
Haisoko (the root of haiso, a plant native to China).
Kara-mokkoh (a plant resembling thistle, found in temperate and cooler parts of Eurasia)
Star anise (native to China, Vietnam)
Patchouli
Cloves
Rei-ryokho (dried stems and leaves of a mint-like plant common to Central Asia).
Barks:
Cassia
Cinnamon
Resins:
Frankincense
Benzoin
Other:
Conch shells (ground and used as a preservative in making incense balls)
Musk (not used in modern incenses)
Chips of aromatic wood or incense formed into balls are burned by being sprinkled onto lit charcoal. Stick incense (e.g., joss sticks) was used in India for centuries, but the techniques for making them were not introduced into Japan until 1600 or so, and Japanese sticks do not use a bamboo stick as a core. Cones are a 20th c. development.
Ah, here we go. Evidently, by the end of the Kamakura period (1333), the blended incense fashionable in the Heian court was superseded by a return to the simpler scents of burning incense woods such as aloeswood, sandalwood and cedar. Shino Shoshin, at the request of shogun Ashikaga Yoshimasa, organized and classified the incense they were using. Soshin and Sanjonishi Sanetaka completed the classifications and developed games and rules for incense-appreciation parties. Reference to "listening" to incense starts to turn up in 15th c. sources. By the end of the Muromachi, Koh-do has become an established art form.
So Sengoku-period incense would have been small pieces of aromatic wood burned on charcoal.
Solveig-sensei has done demonstrations/classes on Koh-do this in the past at Pennsic.
|
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 18, 2012 19:46:04 GMT -5
(Sighs. Reaches for The Book of Incense.... Ah, well, I did need to take a break from hand sewing. )
The use of incense was among the many things introduced from China during the 6th century with Buddhism.
Common ingredients used for incense, either alone or blended:
Woods:
Sandalwood
Aloeswood, also known as jinkoh.
Plants:
Haisoko (the root of haiso, a plant native to China).
Kara-mokkoh (a plant resembling thistle, found in temperate and cooler parts of Eurasia)
Star anise (native to China, Vietnam)
Patchouli
Cloves
Rei-ryokho (dried stems and leaves of a mint-like plant common to Central Asia).
Barks:
Cassia
Cinnamon
Resins:
Frankincense
Benzoin
Other:
Conch shells (ground and used as a preservative in making incense balls)
Musk (not used in modern incenses)
Chips of aromatic wood or incense formed into balls are burned by being sprinkled onto lit charcoal. Stick incense (e.g., joss sticks) was used in India for centuries, but the techniques for making them were not introduced into Japan until 1600 or so, and Japanese sticks do not use a bamboo stick as a core. Cones are a 20th c. development.
Ah, here we go. Evidently, by the end of the Kamakura period (1333), the blended incense fashionable in the Heian court was superseded by a return to the simpler scents of burning incense woods such as aloeswood, sandalwood and cedar. Shino Shoshin, at the request of shogun Ashikaga Yoshimasa, organized and classified the incense they were using. Soshin and Sanjonishi Sanetaka completed the classifications and developed games and rules for incense-appreciation parties. Reference to "listening" to incense starts to turn up in 15th c. sources. By the end of the Muromachi, Koh-do has become an established art form.
So Sengoku-period incense would have been small pieces of aromatic wood burned or heated over charcoal.
Solveig-sensei has done demonstrations/classes on Koh-do this in the past at Pennsic.
|
|
|
|
Post by echigonoryu on Feb 18, 2012 20:28:42 GMT -5
Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time!! The more I dig into the period, the more it fascinates me, does that happen to everyone?? When you say Pennsic... is that a section of the forum? Forgive my ignorance, I haven't had a chance yet to explore all sections  |
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 18, 2012 21:34:57 GMT -5
Apologies, it's easy to assume a forum member would've been familiar with it. I'm guessing you're either not in the SCA or new to it. Pennsic is a big SCA event in western Pennsylvania. Some of our forum members attend fairly regularly. (I haven't been since 2007 as I live in the wrong part of the country.) www.pennsicwar.org/penn41/ |
|
|
|
Post by echigonoryu on Feb 18, 2012 21:57:01 GMT -5
That's all right As for SCA, I presume you mean Society for Creative Anachronism? I live in the wrong country for that, I think (UK), although my husband used to be in a Medieval re-enacting group (he's taking a break from it for a little while at the moment). Sadly, I haven't found any Japanese re-enactment groups, though it might be due to the fact that an Englishman re-enacting Kenshin, for example, would look a bit odd |
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 18, 2012 22:04:28 GMT -5
That's all right As for SCA, I presume you mean Society for Creative Anachronism? I live in the wrong country for that, I think (UK), although my husband used to be in a Medieval re-enacting group (he's taking a break from it for a little while at the moment). Sadly, I haven't found any Japanese re-enactment groups, though it might be due to the fact that an Englishman re-enacting Kenshin, for example, would look a bit odd That's never slowed any of us down. Have a look at the faces of some of our past and present forum members at www.wodefordhall.com/samurai.htm ;D Nor has it prevented members from our Barony of the Far West (which includes branches in Japan, Thailand and other parts of Asia and the Pacific Rim) from pursuing European medieval personae. You are in the SCA kingdom of Drachenwald www.drachenwald.sca.org/index_new.php and there is at least one member in the UK who does some Japanese stuff. He pops up occasionally on this forum under the name "maredudd". Come to think of it, there's a pic of him on the Samurai Eye page... |
|
|
|
Post by Ki no Kotori on Feb 18, 2012 23:11:42 GMT -5
Check out Susan B. Hanley's _Everyday Things in Premodern Japan: The Hidden Legacy of Material Culture_ (Univ. of California Press, Berkeley, 1997) ISBN 0-520-21812-4
This book is more for the Edo period (does go very early Edo, though, so quite close), but it does go into depth about material culture: including bathing. She sites a public bath in Gion by 1320.
"Though we don't know when public baths became popular, Miura Joshin, writing about Edo in the early-seventeenth century, noted that there was a 'public bath in every neighborhood,' that they were very inexpensive, and that everyone as far as he knew went to them."
The footnote dates the source to 1614. It's on page 97.
Anyway, she goes into quite a bit of detail on the topic of bathing, as well as many other details of everyday life. Well worth reading.
|
|
|
|
Post by echigonoryu on Feb 23, 2012 19:23:48 GMT -5
That's never slowed any of us down. Have a look at the faces of some of our past and present forum members at www.wodefordhall.com/samurai.htm ;D Nor has it prevented members from our Barony of the Far West (which includes branches in Japan, Thailand and other parts of Asia and the Pacific Rim) from pursuing European medieval personae. You are in the SCA kingdom of Drachenwald www.drachenwald.sca.org/index_new.php and there is at least one member in the UK who does some Japanese stuff. He pops up occasionally on this forum under the name "maredudd". Come to think of it, there's a pic of him on the Samurai Eye page... Wow! That's so impressive @ki no Kotori - Thanks, I'm seriously considering getting that book, though it's a little pricey, but it looks like a very useful reference. Does it have any information on things like shaving as well? I'm trying to work out if they used any form of shaving cream back then - and if anyone on here knows anything about that topic, I'll be more than grateful if you share the knowledge All those little details keep popping up as I go and bug me immensely until I've found the answers! And another question - a clothing-related one, which I thought I'd post it here instead of double-posting in my other topic, hope that's okay. What would a relatively high-ranking samurai wear when attending his daimyo's funeral service? Would it be the hitare kamishimo, and would they wear waraji? |
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 23, 2012 21:24:35 GMT -5
And another question - a clothing-related one, which I thought I'd post it here instead of double-posting in my other topic, hope that's okay. What would a relatively high-ranking samurai wear when attending his daimyo's funeral service? Would it be the hitare kamishimo, and would they wear waraji? Hitatare kamishimo is fairly formal, waraji are not. Tabi and zori would be more appropriate with hitatare. If you want to feast your eyes on some good costume porn, rent or download either "Kagemusha" or "Ran." Movies aren't really a substitute for research, but the costume design in both of these films is top notch. |
|
|
|
Post by echigonoryu on Feb 23, 2012 21:58:18 GMT -5
Hitatare kamishimo is fairly formal, waraji are not. Tabi and zori would be more appropriate with hitatare. If you want to feast your eyes on some good costume porn, rent or download either "Kagemusha" or "Ran." Movies aren't really a substitute for research, but the costume design in both of these films is top notch. Haha, costume porn, I like that! I've actually downloaded Kagemusha, but haven't had the chance to watch it yet, as I was catching up on Tenchijin and Furin Kazan (and Ten to Chi To which I gave up on halfway through, disguisted with the scope of their 'creative licence' ). Have you seen them? I think the costume porn is abundant as a rule in the Taiga Doramas as well, right? |
|
Wiki told me that "Until the 19th century, the Japanese did not use soap, but rubbed the skin with certain herbs, or rice bran, which was also a natural exfoliant." I was quite surprised to read that, considering their fondness for cleanliness. Is it true, and if yes, any idea at all what those herbs might have been (or am I digging waay too deep??)? Also, has anyone read Hideyoshi Toyotomi's "Nyuto Kokoroe" ("Bathing Etiquette")? It sounds like a really good source of information, but I couldn't find any actual information on it online.
Do you know what the benefit of that was?
It's amazing how considerate they were, isn't it? ;D
And let you know how it goes if I do brave it!
