|
|
Post by Tonbo no Musashi on Feb 24, 2012 16:13:36 GMT -5
Konichiwa! I have been brainstorming about making a Mon, and I have some pics.. Please let me know which ones you think are best, or any suggestions you have. }:-) Arigato Gaozaimasu!    |
|
|
|
Post by solveig on Feb 24, 2012 17:45:55 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greeting from Solveig! I see that you are trying to have some sort of canting on Tonbo. I do wish to suggest that you spend a bit more effort on designing a name as Tonbo no Musashi is rather unlikely to work as a real Japanese name. There are several reasons for this. Perhaps the most obvious is that it is asserting that the province of Musashi is owned by some dragonfly or that there is some province called Musashi which is the province of dragonflies or some such thing.
One thing about kamon. Battle paintings show them displayed on banners in a variety of colors including red and blue. So you have more choices than just black and white.
|
|
|
|
Post by Suzuki Ken'ichi on Feb 25, 2012 14:54:03 GMT -5
As a former member of the College of Heralds, I have some unpleasant news for you, in regards Japanese heraldry... the Society's rules are oriented towards European heraldry, and as such, lock in colors, unlike the historical Japanese reality Solveig-dono mentioned above.
I have found that one way around this is to register the Mon as a "field-less" badge, but if you do that, all the figures have to be conjoined. Otherwise, color-on-metal or metal-on-color as you've done is about the best choice.
|
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 25, 2012 17:30:01 GMT -5
It's my understanding that "framed" mon are late or post-period. Circles are the most common, and sometimes octagons. I don't know about hexagons - I can't remember whether I've seen that or not.
The basic design is blazonable as a device in European terms, at least: Field-color (e.g., sable), three dragonflies in pall, tails to center dragonfly-color (e.g., argent).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2012 13:50:55 GMT -5
I have found that one way around this is to register the Mon as a "field-less" badge, but if you do that, all the figures have to be conjoined. Otherwise, color-on-metal or metal-on-color as you've done is about the best choice. I don't recommend going the "badge" route. I was urged to register my device as a badge, and I have since then been told things like "We don't put badges on the kingdom roll of arms." Registering a badge may be easier than registering arms, but it's worth the extra trouble. Also, if you can't get the arms you really want, find something else you'd be happy with rather than compromise what you want down to something you're not 100% happy with. Just my opinions, grump grump. |
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 26, 2012 15:04:04 GMT -5
Good point. I registered mine as a badge, then Their Majesties decided to offer me a laurel and there was no way I could get the paperwork passed in time to swap my badge for my old European device.
Not the end of the world, by any means, but there it is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tonbo no Musashi on Feb 27, 2012 11:05:51 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greeting from Solveig! I see that you are trying to have some sort of canting on Tonbo. I do wish to suggest that you spend a bit more effort on designing a name as Tonbo no Musashi is rather unlikely to work as a real Japanese name. There are several reasons for this. Perhaps the most obvious is that it is asserting that the province of Musashi is owned by some dragonfly or that there is some province called Musashi which is the province of dragonflies or some such thing. One thing about kamon. Battle paintings show them displayed on banners in a variety of colors including red and blue. So you have more choices than just black and white. Pardon my Ignorance on the name, as it has been 19 years since my japanese schooling. I will look into this, and take any suggestions offered. I was trying to research names of the period, and in some referances they used to call some samurai boys Tonbo (dragonfly). On the colors, I was trying to stay with color on metal, or metal on color, as I would like it to pass as an arms device. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, as again, I have not partaken in the Society for about 12 years or so, and am just getting back into it. Domo Arigato! |
|
|
|
Post by Tonbo no Musashi on Feb 27, 2012 11:42:10 GMT -5
I was reading up on the Rules of Submissions of the College of Arms...
In Section VIII, 6, B....
"6. Documented Exceptions. - An armorial design element that is adequately documented as a period practice may be deemed acceptable even if it violates other sections of Part VIII (Compatible Armorial Style).
Such design elements will be accepted only on a case-by-case basis and only in armory comparable in style and complexity to the documented period examples. The strength of the case for such an exception increases in proportion to: the similarity of the documented examples to the submitted armory; and the number of independent period examples offered as evidence.
a. General Exceptions - In most cases the documentation for a proposed exceptional armorial design element should be drawn from several European heraldic jurisdictions.
The strength of the case for such an exception increases in proportion to the geographical and chronological breadth of the supporting period evidence.
[glow=red,2,300]b. Regional Style - Alternatively, a proposed exceptional armorial design element may be documented as characteristic of a specific regional armorial style.
In such cases the submitted armory may be registered provided that all of the following conditions are met. (1) The submitter explicitly requests an exception to the other sections of Part VIII (Compatible Armorial Style) on the grounds that the submitted armory exemplifies a specific regional style. (2) Documentation is adduced to show that exceptional design element was not uncommon in the regional style in question. (3) Documentation is adduced to show that all elements of the submitted armory can be found in the regional style in question.[/glow]"
According to the above statement, would it be proper to submit the device, claiming it was from the region of Japan and documenting similar family devices/ arms / kamons demonstrating the similar style of the period kamon?
for exapmle, enclosed in a circle, hexago, octagon, etc - as long as we could provide multiple sources of that from the period, and be able to put it into the correct wording?
|
|
|
|
Post by Suzuki Ken'ichi on Feb 27, 2012 16:23:43 GMT -5
In the couple of years that I followed the email traffic related to armorial matters (I don't, anymore) I can not recall a single example of explicitly non-European heraldry passing. It was always disguised / adapted to fit the European rules.
If you want to fight it out, the section of the rules you've cited would seem to be a starting place, but I guarantee you it will be a fight.
|
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 27, 2012 16:58:22 GMT -5
In the couple of years that I followed the email traffic related to armorial matters (I don't, anymore) I can not recall a single example of explicitly non-European heraldry passing. It was always disguised / adapted to fit the European rules. If you can blazon it using European terms, you've got a shot. I had an easier time with my Japanese arms than my European ones (which were returned for conflicts twice and got lost at least one time they would own to). |
|
|
|
Post by solveig on Feb 27, 2012 18:05:30 GMT -5
Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I was reading up on the Rules of Submissions of the College of Arms... There is a major rewrite of the RfS pending BoD approval at the moment. They are supposed to make documented style easier. I'm not sure that it will help kamon. More about samurai banners. Samurai banners show up with up to three tinctures two of them being what we typically think of as the kamon with sometimes a different third color to the base of the banner. |
|
|
|
Post by Tonbo no Musashi on Feb 27, 2012 18:06:37 GMT -5
It surprises me that this day and time there is no searchable database I can find with Devices / arms registered. If they had this, it would make researching easier, as we could see if something was already in use. This would save weeks if not months.
They have the lists per kingdom, but that is not all-inclusive, and I would think there would be an SCA-wide list somewhere.
|
|
|
|
Post by solveig on Feb 27, 2012 18:13:11 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! It surprises me that this day and time there is no searchable database I can find with Devices / arms registered. You are probably looking for oanda.sca.org/oanda_bp.cgi which is generally a few months late on registered items and does not include any of the items currently in the pipe. However, it is still pretty good. |
|
|
|
Post by Tonbo no Musashi on Feb 28, 2012 9:31:21 GMT -5
I stand corrected.
Thankyou much! }:-)
|
|
nana
New Member
~Think Pink~ "I'm obnoxious!"
Posts: 145
|
Post by nana on Feb 29, 2012 11:18:30 GMT -5
Not to take away from Sloveig-dono- You can always explore specific kingdoms site on their college of heralds sections and see what everyone else is doing.  That was my solution. |
|
That was my solution.