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Post by Sakakibara Daitarou Akitou on Dec 3, 2012 0:20:51 GMT -5
As I mentioned in my introduction, I am looking for advice on getting started with my Japanese SCA persona. So far, my thoughts are to be based in Azuchi–Momoyama jidai. My only reason for this choice is to be as late-period as possible in order to offer myself more options. I've looked over SengokuDaimyo.com's naming convention and tried my best to keep within those guidelines. As well, I would like to eventually have it registered with the College of Arms and such. The name I have chosen is "Takeda no Kinjiro Akira." As far as I can tell, this seems to be period. However, I've begun to have reservations about using Takeda as my byname. It seems to be fairly common. Originally, I went by Teichou Akira (a very literal translation of my real name), but Teichou isn't a real name (modern or historical) and could be considered derogatory. Next, I have a concern regarding the use of a historical clan byname and heraldry devices. Traditionally, those of a clan would bear that clan's kamon. However, I've been told you cannot use such existing historical devices unless you are legally of relation. Add in the matter of making kamons into European devices and you've got one confused Akira. For one, I don't know the first thing about making a device, though I have some ideas for a geometric kamon. At the moment, I seem to be more tired than I initially thought, so I can't think of all the other things I wanted to bring up. Hopefully, after some sleep and some discussion, I'll be able to get back on the ball. |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Dec 3, 2012 1:33:54 GMT -5
The only comment I have on your name is the fact that the "no" fell out of use by the period you want to do. If you're uncomfortable with using Takeda, there are plenty of other bynames to choose from. There's nothing wrong with Takeda, BTW, but there are about half a dozen registered Takedas in the SCA Ordinary and Armorial.
According to the herald folks, you have to be able to describe your kamon using European heraldic terms. There are ways to do it. Mine reads as "Argent, three fans in pall inverted conjoined at the handles azure each charged with a demi-roundel flat to center argent." Sounds like gobbledygook until you realize that it's three blue fans with their handles touching in the middle, on a white field, each with a white half circle (representing a half moon) on it.
If you have a concept sketch for something, post it. That way we can see what you have in mind and offer some suggestions.
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Post by Sakakibara Daitarou Akitou on Dec 3, 2012 11:16:27 GMT -5
There's nothing wrong with Takeda, BTW, but there are about half a dozen registered Takedas in the SCA Ordinary and Armorial. was my worry. I will probably end up changing it, in the end, then. I like the name as Takeda Shingen was my inspiration, but some manner of uniqueness would be nice. I'd hate to be at an event where someone yells, "Hey, Takeda!" and 3-4 heads flip around.  As for concept design, I most certainly have one. Ignore the flame-like designs around the inside edge. I don't think they would translate well. However, the main focus is the triangles and diamonds in the center. I'm not opposed to shifting the blue to red if it would simplify things. Though, if at all possible, I'd like the shape to be maintained. |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Dec 3, 2012 12:18:31 GMT -5
Japanese mon are usually two colors light and dark. Have a look around www.otomiya.com/kamon/ for examples and possible ideas. I don't know where to begin to even attempt to blazon what you posted. Something simpler is more likely to have a chance in passing. |
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Post by Sakakibara Daitarou Akitou on Dec 3, 2012 12:59:53 GMT -5
Japanese mon are usually two colors light and dark. Have a look around www.otomiya.com/kamon/ for examples and possible ideas. That's simple enough to modify. I'd like to stick with red on black, but if black on white is necessary that's not a problem. I don't know where to begin to even attempt to blazon what you posted. Something simpler is more likely to have a chance in passing. My only real focus is the geometric shape in the center. There are four triangles (one in each corner) and two skewed diamonds in the center top/bottom. If the shapes are the issue, I can scrap this and hit the drawing board again. It's no biggie. The image I supplied above is stylized for another use, but my ultimate goal was always something more akin to this:  Or this:  Shape by itself.  |
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Post by roninpenguin on Dec 4, 2012 2:31:31 GMT -5
Well your first problem is going to be the fact that you have to define any device that you try to pass under SCA European heraldic terms and charges.
One of the biggest rules is that you can not have a color touch a color (Black, Red, Blue, Green, Purple) and you can't have a metal touch a metal (Silver/white and Yellow/Gold) but must have one divide the other ie Gold between Blue and Green, White between Purple and Red, etc. That means you can't use a Red and Black color combo because you need to have a metal dividing your colors. Your Black and White would work under these rules though.
Your other issue will probably be that you need your charge to be similar to something that was used in Europe in period. You are aloud to use artistic license to make your charge match your persona's nationality but the base charge it's self needs to be known in Europe. Now I'm not an expert in European charges but I don't know of anything that resembles what you are using, maybe someone else here with more knowledge then I have may know of something similar.
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Post by Sakakibara Daitarou Akitou on Dec 4, 2012 10:27:49 GMT -5
Well your first problem is going to be the fact that you have to define any device that you try to pass under SCA European heraldic terms and charges. One of the biggest rules is that you can not have a color touch a color (Black, Red, Blue, Green, Purple) and you can't have a metal touch a metal (Silver/white and Yellow/Gold) but must have one divide the other ie Gold between Blue and Green, White between Purple and Red, etc. That means you can't use a Red and Black color combo because you need to have a metal dividing your colors. Your Black and White would work under these rules though. Your other issue will probably be that you need your charge to be similar to something that was used in Europe in period. You are aloud to use artistic license to make your charge match your persona's nationality but the base charge it's self needs to be known in Europe. Now I'm not an expert in European charges but I don't know of anything that resembles what you are using, maybe someone else here with more knowledge then I have may know of something similar. Hmm... Really seems to be leaning in the way of scrapping. I'll take one last stab at this before I take it back to scratch. If I'm not mistaken, it seems the biggest issue is the shape, as a whole. Would it make any difference if I disjointed them from eachother as well as the outer ring? |
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Post by solveig on Dec 4, 2012 20:42:58 GMT -5
Noble Cousins!
Greetings from Solveig! SENA, the most recent heraldry rules, allow for registering documented armorial styles. This potentially opens the door to Japanese charges in use prior to 1601. However, the design currently being discussed does not appear to me to fit within the spectrum of historic Japanese charges. Nor does it seem likely to fit within the "core style" of the College of Arms.
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Post by Sakakibara Daitarou Akitou on Dec 5, 2012 0:15:42 GMT -5
Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! SENA, the most recent heraldry rules, allow for registering documented armorial styles. This potentially opens the door to Japanese charges in use prior to 1601. However, the design currently being discussed does not appear to me to fit within the spectrum of historic Japanese charges. Nor does it seem likely to fit within the "core style" of the College of Arms. Thanks for the reply! Given the individual shapes that make up the greater whole, is there anything that could be done to make it fit the guidelines? I'm completely open to suggestions. The original design is an obscured reference to Takeda Shingen's mon, which was just four diamonds arranged in a diamond pattern. In my design, I still have two of the diamonds, but I replaced the outermost ones with two triangles instead. I understand the original concept won't work, but can anything be done to salvage it? |
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Post by Sakakibara Daitarou Akitou on Dec 20, 2012 15:36:35 GMT -5
Moving away from the blazon (I know a local whom I'll sit down with and start from scratch with), I'd like to discuss a possible name change and ensure it meets the proper scheme for the period I chose (Azuchi–Momoyama). As was suggested above, I have removed the "no" particle, but was curious as to whether the zokumyo was retained or not.
榊原 金太郎 明 - Sakakibara Kintaro Akira
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Post by solveig on Dec 20, 2012 23:15:29 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! Yes, the zokumyō is retained.
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Post by Sakakibara Daitarou Akitou on Dec 22, 2012 16:36:32 GMT -5
Thank you so much for the help!
So then, as it stands, "Sakakibara Kintaro Akira" should hold through registration. Is that correct?
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Post by solveig on Dec 22, 2012 20:34:26 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! - There are 60000 people in Japan whose name is 榊原 Sakakibara. Fortunately, this name appears on page 162 of NCMJ Rev. Ed. and dates to the Sengoku period.
- Technically it should be 金太郎 Kintarou instead of Kintaro as the O is a long (double beat) O. However, the Pelican sovereign of arms has been accepting "lazy romanization". I keep trying to convince her not to as the sounds and meanings are different.
- While 明 Akira is a perfectly fine modern name it is somewhat doubtful as a premodern name unless of course we can find somebody from before 1601 who had it as a name.
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Post by Sakakibara Daitarou Akitou on Dec 23, 2012 3:24:50 GMT -5
I'll be sure to use Kintarou in the future. Thank you! As for my nanori... glancing at this, 明 is on the list of Nanori, though romanized as "Aki." 明 Akira and 明 Aki both have the same meaning, kanji and only differ slightly in pronunciation. I'm not entirely against using 明 Aki if need be, but I fear for confusion with 秋 Aki. |
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Post by Sō Haruko on Dec 23, 2012 11:00:58 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry about being confused with the other kanji. Most of the SCAdians you're going to run into know nothing about kanji. (: If they ask, tell them the appropriate meaning.
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