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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 16, 2017 21:01:52 GMT -5
Hello all! I was hoping someone could point me in the direction of any resources that might help me understand the dimensions of the Shinden zukuri architectural style. In particular, I would like to know measurements like, height inside the moya, pitch of the rooflines, wood joinery for the rafters, length and type wood used (only hinoki?), width of construction members, and the Heian period 1 ken measurement or equivalent. There are, of course, countless other dimensions I would love to have but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. I would be using this information to create a scale replica and digital drawings. I am an architectural designer by trade and have been messing around with some prototypes to go large scale that is not quite as large as a 120 meter square complex but I want to get the ratios spot on. Some images below of version 1:   Sengoku Daimyo has a great overview in Shinden-zukuri Estates of the Heian Period and JAANUS (Japanese Architecture and Arts Net Users System) is great for looking up parts and pieces, but I am now looking for the next step: more detail! Sadly, I do not read Japanese but can use Google translate like the best of them. If there are pictures or even architectural drawings (one can dream right?), that can also work. Thank you in advance for any suggestions. |
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Post by solveig on Apr 18, 2017 12:37:00 GMT -5
Can you read Japanese? If so, that opens up a lot more possibilities than otherwise. Years ago, I bought a series of books on Japanese detail architecture (in Japanese) which would probably be generally interesting to you although they each tend to cover centuries of architectural development. As for the wood to use. They probably used different types of wood depending on their location. Unfortunately, as I recall, the oldest intact piece of wooden residential architecture was the golden pavilion which was burned down about fifty years ago. Today, the silver pavilion may be the oldest. One of these two structures (I forget which) is architecturally famous for having one floor in more or less shinden style architecture and the other in more or less shoen style architecture.
Regardless, I have several other books on Japanese architectural history which are pretty much all in Japanese. I also have a book on designing tea rooms and tea huts. How proficient are you in design and fabrication? About ten years ago, I was talked into a hut on wheels project which failed massively. I still have an 11 x 8 foot trailer which can be outfitted with either of two types of wheel/tire combinations.
As for wood. I strongly recommend Port Orford Cedar. It is imported to Japan as a substitute for hinoki wood and has outstanding material properties such as rot resistance. As I recall, you can burry an untreated Port Orford Cedar post in the ground and have it last for 40 years. (As I recall, traditional Japanese wooden buildings typically have their posts sitting on rocks slightly above ground level.) If you are not up for Port Orford Cedar, then how about Western White Cedar?
Oh, I just read your note again, and sadly you have not yet learned to read Japanese. However, some Japanese books and online resources are profusely illustrated. Further, dimensions are given in either of two systems with the identify of which system usually being pretty obvious.
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Post by solveig on Apr 18, 2017 12:53:50 GMT -5
Sorry, I just noticed that you do not yet read Japanese. However, here are some pretty promising books in Japanese:
『寝殿造の空間と儀式』(2012) 408 p. ISBN: 4805506822
『寝殿造の研究』(2010) 981 p. ISBN: 464202476X
『平安京と貴族の住まい』400 p. ISBN: 4876985715
No, I am not offering to translate all of them for you in their entirety. However, I am probably willing to collaborate with you. Possibly on a CA issue on premodern Japanese architecture. Actually, if we can manage the coordination and logistics for such a project, a three way effort including Ishiyama who is seriously into joinery might be a great thing to do.
As a total side note, my father's job title was "engineering designer". Consequently, I grew up playing with professional drafting tools. I was even employed in a drafting office the Summer between high school and college. However, I do not claim the sort of proficiency that you possess. I just claim to be able to appreciate it.
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Post by solveig on Apr 18, 2017 17:50:49 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Sólveig! I found an article on a site devoted to Heian Period architecture which claims that the type of roof of dwellings occupied by aristocrats depended upon their court rank. Are you interested in a particular court rank? Regardless, here is the article in question: www1.bbiq.jp/byouanmonzyo/shinden-shinden.html |
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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 18, 2017 23:55:55 GMT -5
Unfortunately, as I recall, the oldest intact piece of wooden residential architecture was the golden pavilion which was burned down about fifty years ago. Today, the silver pavilion may be the oldest. One of these two structures (I forget which) is architecturally famous for having one floor in more or less shinden style architecture and the other in more or less shoen style architecture. You are correct, Kinkaku-ji was burned down but it was refurbished and does present the first floor in shinden style. "While the Golden Pavilion exhibits the use of the Shinden-Zukuri style, the Silver Pavilion uses the more recently developed Shoin style plan." ( 1) What is unclear is how much of the interior remains in that style and what modifications were made. For instance, there is a picture on the interior which shows the unadorned exterior (which as I understand was to create a juxtaposition with the surrounding garden) and yet the interior looks lavishly painted with, what I would call, classic red and what appears to be peacock feathers on the post just to the right of the buddha/bodhisattva ( 2):  Regardless, I have several other books on Japanese architectural history which are pretty much all in Japanese. I also have a book on designing tea rooms and tea huts. How proficient are you in design and fabrication? About ten years ago, I was talked into a hut on wheels project which failed massively. I still have an 11 x 8 foot trailer which can be outfitted with either of two types of wheel/tire combinations. I believe you mentioned this trailer in a past thread back in the days when I only lurked on Tousando or the yahoo boards. I am very proficient at design (concept to construction documents) and know a thing or two about fabrication (we typically do construction administration on all projects unless the client "wants to save a $ or two." - yes those are air quotes). Typically, I work with a contractor/builder to help me build my designs but I'm on site with the best of them from day 1. How far did you get on your hut project? Do you have old plans from your project? Curious minds would love to know! I live in a city and don't own a car (never have in fact) so each event I have to rent a car to get to and from. I wouldn't even know where to park a trailer unless I bought garage space (no thank you). As for wood. I strongly recommend Port Orford Cedar. It is imported to Japan as a substitute for hinoki wood and has outstanding material properties such as rot resistance. As I recall, you can burry an untreated Port Orford Cedar post in the ground and have it last for 40 years. (As I recall, traditional Japanese wooden buildings typically have their posts sitting on rocks slightly above ground level.) If you are not up for Port Orford Cedar, then how about Western White Cedar? I did find this paper by Professor ITOH Takao, Wood Research Institute at Kyoto University. www.nara.accu.or.jp/elearning/2004/architectural.pdf. Like many books on architecture, it flows from one style to the next. However, wood seems problematic when used in the SCA especially when there are so many fiddly bits. (Yes, that's an architectural term for too many connections!) I was considering using metal as it can be sourced easier. That said, the floor would be where I spent the most of my $$$'s and that would be a fine place to use Port Orford or Wester White (not red?) Cedar. My original brief was, how can we make a more cost effect, Heian era styled tent for use in the SCA? Is this possible? What are the limitations? Where would I take artistic licenses? How could you build a structure that can evolve year to year so the up front cost isn't so high? Basically, can we use off the shelf materials to create a SCA scene akin to a scene like this (note - this is my first pass and does not reflect the final design. that said, it does have a nice quality with the arrangement of buildings and the layered effect of the tents/architecture):  This image is about 6 hours of work including research for products that could be used: - Base: Sweetwater stage (intended as a last purchase due to sticker shock. I may be able to get an industry discount.) topped with custom wood panel divided in 2'-0" x 4'-0" "leaves" that can be connected on the bottom similar to an expanding dining room table. To hide the expanding legs of the stage, would be small light colored fabric skirt to mimic a plinth.
- Posts and joints: Car port metal that can be powder coated colors
- Shades:Bamboo shades from Home Depot with some modification on the sides with fabric to mimic the real thing.
- Roof and walls: Sunbrella fabrics to help with the colors.
Sorry, I just noticed that you do not yet read Japanese. However, here are some pretty promising books in Japanese: 『寝殿造の空間と儀式』(2012) 408 p. ISBN: 4805506822 『寝殿造の研究』(2010) 981 p. ISBN: 464202476X 『平安京と貴族の住まい』400 p. ISBN: 4876985715 Thank you for the book recommendations. Are these volumes in your possession? As you have noticed, I do not speak Japanese (though I do like how you said "yet") and would be heavily relying on Google translate. Do you know if the books you have provided have ample photographs or diagrams? It would be a shame to purchase books I ultimately cannot use/read. No, I am not offering to translate all of them for you in their entirety. However, I am probably willing to collaborate with you. Possibly on a CA issue on premodern Japanese architecture. Actually, if we can manage the coordination and logistics for such a project, a three way effort including Ishiyama who is seriously into joinery might be a great thing to do. I would love to collaborate! Send me a PM or write me back hear. Would love to know what you have got cooking on the stove, so to speak. As a total side note, my father's job title was "engineering designer". Consequently, I grew up playing with professional drafting tools. I was even employed in a drafting office the Summer between high school and college. However, I do not claim the sort of proficiency that you possess. I just claim to be able to appreciate it. That's pretty cool. I've always wanted to be either an astronaut or an architect. I am on my way to the latter. Greetings from Sólveig! I found an article on a site devoted to Heian Period architecture which claims that the type of roof of dwellings occupied by aristocrats depended upon their court rank. Are you interested in a particular court rank? Regardless, here is the article in question: www1.bbiq.jp/byouanmonzyo/shinden-shinden.htmlI had not thought about my particular court rank. As I am not very active in the SCA, I do not have any awards or honors that would denote my rank. Would a very low court rank even have their own estate? The article is interesting as it does show some details I had questioned like: what does the floor look like? Links Used above:(1) Ginkaku-ji, www.webpages.uidaho.edu/arch499/nonwest/japan3/ginkakuji.htm(2) Kinkaku-ji, www.wikiwand.com/eu/Kinkaku-ji |
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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 19, 2017 0:55:08 GMT -5
Some additional analysis from tonight after reviewing my design:  The big challenge will be the roof and how you scale down but keep the shape. After watching the NHK World "Core Kyoto" segment about the reconstruction efforts from Saionji-hime, I am thinking the texture of the hinoki slats could be achieved through folding canvas and sewing back down to pillow up the eaves. I will have to do some test runs. I don't think I've posted this previously, but NHK World's "Core Kyoto" has an interesting segment on temple architecture and the modern craftsmen who use traditional carpentry skills to repair and renew ancient structures. |
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Post by solveig on Apr 20, 2017 17:30:43 GMT -5
what appears to be peacock feathers on the post just to the right of the buddha/bodhisattva Its a Buddha figure. You can always tell the difference by their clothing. Telling apart individual Buddhas is more tricky. The hand position can give a clue as can some other details. I believe you mentioned this trailer in a past thread back in the days when I only lurked on Tousando or the yahoo boards. I am very proficient at design (concept to construction documents) and know a thing or two about fabrication (we typically do construction administration on all projects unless the client "wants to save a $ or two." - yes those are air quotes). Typically, I work with a contractor/builder to help me build my designs but I'm on site with the best of them from day 1. How far did you get on your hut project? Do you have old plans from your project? Curious minds would love to know! I made some major design errors in my drawings for what was intended to be a shoen style tea hut. However, the floor plan and various elevation features is based on principles found in『自慢できる茶室をつくるために』ISBN: 9784473009562. Although I am a bit embarrassed to share them, they are mostly here. Actually the plan was to park the the thing at Pennsic. I do own a car, but I would have to rent a space at a storage facility for any trailer, and my car really isn't designed for pulling the things. Port Orford Cedar, then how about Western White Cedar? ... That said, the floor would be where I spent the most of my $$$'s and that would be a fine place to use Port Orford or Wester White (not red?) Cedar. If the goal is to recreate a Japanese building, you do not want to use red cedar. As I recall, Western White Cedar was my second choice for wood. Port Orford is the best domestic choice, but you have to order it from Bear Creek Lumber or a similar establishment. My original brief was, how can we make a more cost effect, Heian era styled tent for use in the SCA? Is this possible? What are the limitations? Where would I take artistic licenses? How could you build a structure that can evolve year to year so the up front cost isn't so high? They had pavilions called 幄の屋 akunoya also called 幄舎 akusha used for garden parties in Heian-kyō. People did not live in the things even on a temporary basis. Japan does not appear to have ever had a tent culture. Regardless, here are some pictures for you to consider: There are several fundamental problems with carport components: - The distance between uprights on the long side is incorrect.
- Narrow round uprights are not correct. Except for some very fat round pillars in temples and similar structures and piece of log inserted in one corner of some tokonoma as a decorative element, Japanese pillars are square and much wider than carport uprights. I suppose that you could try to disguise the carport uprights with some sort of molded plastic made to look sort of like wood.
- I am not sure that carport uprights and cross pieces are up to the loads required to support a reasonable roof. Note that the spacing of carport uprights is much closer than the spacing of uprights in Japanese architecture. Do you have a copy of Measure and Construction of the Japanese House ISBN: 0804814929
Thank you for the book recommendations. Are these volumes in your possession? As you have noticed, I do not speak Japanese (though I do like how you said "yet") and would be heavily relying on Google translate. Do you know if the books you have provided have ample photographs or diagrams? It would be a shame to purchase books I ultimately cannot use/read. No, but I suppose that I could be talked into buying copies. I do have a bunch of books about Japanese detail architecture and a book about castle architecture. I also have books about the history of Japanese residential architecture. The books I mentioned above are all pretty recent and as I recall are dedicated to shinden style architecture. That's pretty cool. I've always wanted to be either an astronaut or an architect. I am on my way to the latter. I wanted to be an astronaut too, but I found out back in the 1970s that I would not pass even a mission specialist physical. They have very stringent vision requirements. |
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Post by Please Delete on Apr 20, 2017 20:14:31 GMT -5
If you need more references, check out Esashi Fujiawara no Mura: www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157622560669324/, for pictures I took while I was there. They have several reconstructed Heian buildings that may help you with dimensions. You can also look up Uji Shrine as well as the Byodoin itself, which was converted from a Heian era estate, as I recall. Those may all assist. -Ii |
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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 22, 2017 22:17:59 GMT -5
Thank you all for supplying your resources! It will take some time to read and review them all. That said, I did find this interesting digital Shiden project: www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6OxWJDoG9M. It looks like the author was recreating the mansion from Tale of Genji: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgqmhCD7pBk&t=5s. I have asked them if they could supply the model or dimensions. Will report back if I receive any word! Otherwise, thank you again, and enjoy the videos! |
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Post by Bun'ami on Apr 23, 2017 9:07:42 GMT -5
Best I could find in my humble book collection.
The Genius of Japanese Carpentry, by S. Azby Brown, ISBN:4770019785, appears to be a companion book to the Shiden Project video you mentioned above or a similar project. It has a few architectural drawings and measurements.
The Way of the Carpenter, by William H. Coaldrake, ISBN: 0824802317, unfortunately it's Out of Print, but might be in a library. He shows dimensions on how to use the sashigane to determine the slope of the rafters and the pitch to the curvature of the eave beams.
Bun'ami
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Post by Please Delete on Apr 23, 2017 14:13:24 GMT -5
Have you reached out to the folks at the Kyoto Costume Museum (http://www.iz2.or.jp)? They have resources on Heian furniture and furnishings, and I suspect they knew what they were doing with the Rokujo palace that they created. They may have other suggestions.
-Ii
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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 23, 2017 14:29:39 GMT -5
I believe you mentioned this trailer in a past thread back in the days when I only lurked on Tousando or the yahoo boards. I am very proficient at design (concept to construction documents) and know a thing or two about fabrication (we typically do construction administration on all projects unless the client "wants to save a $ or two." - yes those are air quotes). Typically, I work with a contractor/builder to help me build my designs but I'm on site with the best of them from day 1. How far did you get on your hut project? Do you have old plans from your project? Curious minds would love to know! I made some major design errors in my drawings for what was intended to be a shoen style tea hut. However, the floor plan and various elevation features is based on principles found in『自慢できる茶室をつくるために』ISBN: 9784473009562. Although I am a bit embarrassed to share them, they are mostly here. Not sure why you would be a bit embarrassed with your work, as it seems like a great case study that would fit right at home in the tiny house movement. There are now plenty of contractors that specialize in this typology. I am curious what you mean by major design errors, but will not pry if you do not want to discuss or you can PM me if that is your preference. I am also curious if it is your intent to resurrect this project? I might be able to help in this realm with my connections within the industry. Regardless, thank you very much for sharing with me. My original brief was, how can we make a more cost effect, Heian era styled tent for use in the SCA? Is this possible? What are the limitations? Where would I take artistic licenses? How could you build a structure that can evolve year to year so the up front cost isn't so high? They had pavilions called 幄の屋 akunoya also called 幄舎 akusha used for garden parties in Heian-kyō. People did not live in the things even on a temporary basis. Japan does not appear to have ever had a tent culture. (response note: removed photos and text for brevity) There are several fundamental problems with carport components: - The distance between uprights on the long side is incorrect. - In my previous post, I was exploring what an actual shinden might have looked like in plan. Even here I measured only to 6'-0" instead of the actual 2m. Regardless, this would be a VERY large structure to try and design, build, deploy, tear down, store, and ultimately bring to events as a solo practitioner. Even just building out the moya without the hisashi or sunoko would net a 30'-0" long x 12'-0" wide structure, again assuming 6'-0" bays. This is why having actual dimensions of the shinden would be useful, in order to scale down the structure but keep the proportions intact. While it might not be as grand as the real thing, I would say it would be grand for the scale of the SCA. Of course, keeping it a livable scale would also important.
- Narrow round uprights are not correct. Except for some very fat round pillars in temples and similar structures and piece of log inserted in one corner of some tokonoma as a decorative element, Japanese pillars are square and much wider than carport uprights. I suppose that you could try to disguise the carport uprights with some sort of molded plastic made to look sort of like wood. - I started with carports as there is a plethora of businesses that sell fittings and the engineering is fairly straight forward as far as weight and live loads are considered (read: roof uplight anyone!). I have pondered using a multitude of methods to hide or obscure the structure. My initial designs will most likely keep the structure exposed. Below are 3 initial thoughts:
1) Simple wood boards in front of the posts attached at top and bottom. Simple, effective, and easy to prototype. It adds to the load that would need to be carried in and out, but so it goes. This is most likely the method I will be using.
2) Using an architectural demountable system like DIRTT walls, which has an outdoor and heavy timber division now. This would be both great for my professional experience and a way to have an engineer on board. I know they could even source and apply hinoki or port orford wood veneer to aluminum posts - thus removing the need to use carport posts. This would be highly custom and most expensive. It is also not clear how easy it would be to set up and tear down.
3) There are many places that produce printed fiberglass in order to minimize the weight. The cost would be to scan various hinoki textures so that way you don't have too many repeats. That said, all my research indicates that in order to get the cost of each post down, it would require me to purchase a larger production run. Additionally, fiberglass doesn't do well to set up and tear down. - I am not sure that carport uprights and cross pieces are up to the loads required to support a reasonable roof. Note that the spacing of carport uprights is much closer than the spacing of uprights in Japanese architecture. Do you have a copy of Measure and Construction of the Japanese House ISBN: 0804814929 - My question would be, what is a reasonable roof? I, myself have not fully answered this question either, but would welcome your thoughts. In general a roof that has the shape and the primary structure would be a good place to start. I would say it would be a stretch to think I would have each purlin and build up the roof the exact same way. As you mention the weight would not be able to support such loads.
Also, thank you for the book recommendation. It is on it's way to my house.
While I understand that Japan never had a tent culture, even considering the akunoya building type, one aspect of my project is to take a first pass at creating a better space for Heian era Japanese Personae. I would not argue that using actual materials, sizes, and foundations would be the best way to recreate a shinden-zukuri structure, but there are other factors at play in our game such as storage, deployment, tear down, etc. I do believe there are areas in which we can pull classic materials into the design of the space, but in general I also believe the cost would be too prohibitive for myself or even others to replicate. You are also correct in that there are some inherent problems in using carport components and I have replied back with some additional thoughts to each item in red italics above. Ultimately, camping in a dome tent or European Pavilion is also not correct. How can we get closer? Thank you for the book recommendations. Are these volumes in your possession? As you have noticed, I do not speak Japanese (though I do like how you said "yet") and would be heavily relying on Google translate. Do you know if the books you have provided have ample photographs or diagrams? It would be a shame to purchase books I ultimately cannot use/read. No, but I suppose that I could be talked into buying copies. I do have a bunch of books about Japanese detail architecture and a book about castle architecture. I also have books about the history of Japanese residential architecture. The books I mentioned above are all pretty recent and as I recall are dedicated to shinden style architecture. It is not my intent to have you purchase copies of these books in my stead! I was more curious to know if you had them already in your procession and if you could make further recommendations based on my lack of knowledge in reading Japanese. I have yet to decide if I want to purchase copies (partially because I already have so much to review!). I will update you as I mull it over. That's pretty cool. I've always wanted to be either an astronaut or an architect. I am on my way to the latter. I wanted to be an astronaut too, but I found out back in the 1970s that I would not pass even a mission specialist physical. They have very stringent vision requirements. Me too! |
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Post by Kagami Tomoko on Apr 23, 2017 15:02:00 GMT -5
Best I could find in my humble book collection. The Genius of Japanese Carpentry, by S. Azby Brown, ISBN:4770019785, appears to be a companion book to the Shiden Project video you mentioned above or a similar project. It has a few architectural drawings and measurements. The Way of the Carpenter, by William H. Coaldrake, ISBN: 0824802317, unfortunately it's Out of Print, but might be in a library. He shows dimensions on how to use the sashigane to determine the slope of the rafters and the pitch to the curvature of the eave beams. Bun'ami Brilliant! Both copies of these books are on their way. I found used copies online in reasonable condition. Thank you for the recommendations! Have you reached out to the folks at the Kyoto Costume Museum (http://www.iz2.or.jp)? They have resources on Heian furniture and furnishings, and I suspect they knew what they were doing with the Rokujo palace that they created. They may have other suggestions. -Ii Also Brilliant! I had not contacted the folks at the museum but have just sent out an e-mail. Hopefully they can respond back in English. I do know they have a CD rom you can purchase in English, but it is unclear whether it will contain the information I seek. They do give great information on widths and lengths of the Moya but not on heights: www.iz2.or.jp/english/revive/embody2.htm#siya. Ultimately, I would also need the ridge line, roof angle, etc. but having the base is a start! Thank you for bringing up the idea. |
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Post by solveig on Apr 23, 2017 15:14:41 GMT -5
Never forget the used book market. Although I prefer new books, I buy used books on occasion for a variety of reasons. I have purchased hard to find used books from Japan and Australia. The Genius of Japanese Carpentry, by S. Azby Brown, ISBN:4770019785, appears to be a companion book to the Shiden Project video you mentioned above or a similar project. It has a few architectural drawings and measurements. New copies of ISBN: 9784805312766 can be had for $16.45 plus $3.99 shipping at: www.alibris.com Used copies of ISBN: 9780834802315 can be had for $31.70 plus $3.99 shipping at: www.alibris.com They even have new copies starting at $90.27. |
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Post by solveig on Apr 23, 2017 15:24:27 GMT -5
I am curious what you mean by major design errors, but will not pry if you do not want to discuss or you can PM me if that is your preference. I am also curious if it is your intent to resurrect this project? I might be able to help in this realm with my connections within the industry. Regardless, thank you very much for sharing with me. A while back, I was thinking that as "designed" the structure would not be structurally stable. I did a variety of things to achieve various features within the available space which might not be practical. You are free to study my drawings and either publicly post commentary or send private messages to me. |
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