Shields in Japan....

[OgamiBusho]

I personally see no reason whatsoever to require sword and shield for a Samurai. I know all the reasons why people think it's a must, and I disagree. I consider it a Euro-centric waste of time. Should I be required to learn to drive a car in order to get a motorcycle license? Or should I live in a paper nest in order to 'understand' wasps before I swat one?

I like to take the (apparently minority) view that the SCA is a historical re-creation organization. Normans should fight with Norman weapons. Romans should fight with Roman weapons. Samurai should fight with Samurai weapons.

Over the last fifteen or twenty years there has been a real push to regard SCA combat as just another contact sport. Those who dare to point out that fantasy armor and 'mix and match' weapons really aren't right are derided as 'authenticity nazis'. Those who suggest that there is more to fighting than winning are met with blank, uncomprehending stares.

Can you tell this is a sore point with me?

Besides, what do you call a Samurai with a shield?
A transvestite.

[Katayama Hiromoto]

ogamibusho said:

I like to take the (apparently minority) view that the SCA is a historical re-creation organization. Normans should fight with Norman weapons. Romans should fight with Roman weapons. Samurai should fight with Samurai weapons.

Hmm... Imagine that... Warrior's fighting with historically correct weapons... What is the SCA coming to?!?

Are we turning into a historical recreation society?!? Nah... Couldn't be... ;D (Shh... Don't tell anyone.)

For what it's worth... I compleatly agree with Ogami-tono.

Katayama
Authenticity Nazi

[irish65]

I too was faced by a similar Problem the Canton I live in requires you to authorize with sword and shield first. I found a Korean shield wich was close to the period for my personna. Since Japan did invade Korean it is not a far stretch to say that this item could have made its way home as a souvenier. Since I cant figure out how to post a picture on this board send me a e-mail at irish_65 @yahoo.com and I will send you some pictures

[Please Delete]

If they are going to require you to fight with a shield, several possibilities that I have seen or thought of:

1) Fight with a jingasa. Create a round (preferrably conical) 'hat', rather like a round shield.

2) Fight with a large 'war fan'. Typically used by generals to signal troops, I do believe there are accounts of them being used as parrying devices early on.

3) Carry a small tate to fight with. I don't like this as much because it doesn't seem like the kind of thing one would immediately 'grab' when looking for something to use as a shield.


I agree, however, that you shouldn't _make_ someone learn a weapon style they don't want. Although some tournaments may require certain weapon styles--in which case you need to decide how badly you want to fight in that tournament.


-Ii

[kenshiro]

Ogami- thats basicly how I fell about it... The people I have been training with are pleading with me, "If your going to do a Japanese persona, do it right"...

And yet they are pushing the sword and board style on me...

I am just going to make a bastard sword and fight with that a few times...

Maybe I will have a aptitude for it...

Thanks for the opinons and keep them coming !!

[raycornwell2]

Just paint "Authorizing fighter" on your shield! In Red paint on a neon pink background!
8)

[OgamiBusho]

irish65 said:

the Canton I live in requires you to authorize with sword and shield first.

The canton requires? Who cares about a canton's rules? What does your *kingdom* require? That's what matters.

In AS 11 or 12 when I first authorized I lived in the East. I had to qualify S&S first. When I did, I was taken aside and told that my shieldwork was "of master quality". I thanked the man who said so, and then told him I was never going to use another shield for the rest of my life.

Here's my view- if a tourney requires the use of a shield, I fight pick-ups. If people tell me I could kill a lot more people if I used a shield I tell them it's not period for me. And if a squire of mine decides to use a shield, I tell him to have a good time and to return his belt to me.

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

ogamibusho said:

irish65 said:

the Canton I live in requires you to authorize with sword and shield first.

The canton requires? Who cares about a canton's rules? What does your *kingdom* require? That's what matters.

Well ... don't piss off your knight marshall!

Here's my view- if a tourney requires the use of a shield, I fight pick-ups.

I fight gumbai uchiwa.

If people tell me I could kill a lot more people if I used a shield I tell them it's not period for me.

Yosh!

刀
槍
弓
馬

[Date Saburou Yukiie]

And if a squire of mine decides to use a shield, I tell him to have a good time and to return his belt to me.

Need I add that I have never seen this challenged? We believe Ogami-sensei.

I find Romans to be interesting shields....they are organized enough to stay put while the Y.K. casually head to the flanks...

Date

[Toastygawa]

Ii-san mentions an idea I spawned not long ago.

Would it be possible, or plausible to use a Tate as a shield?
Ashigaru would have had to carry the tate to their lines and plant them before letting fly their arrows, yes? Imagine what would happen if said ashigaru were to be engaged in close battle while carrying his tate.

I don't know of the shield size limitations in the SCA (I should probably look it up), but is the idea do-able?

[kenshiro]

I am pretty sure a Tate is the pavise the archers or Handgunners stood behind correct ??

If so, then thats the basic shape of the shields most folks use around here...

[Please Delete]

The problem I see with the tate is that it is a big, unwieldy thing that is good for hiding behind, but not meant to allow for much movement. Also, much of Japanese combat seems to focus on using both hands for attack if possible--control of the horse being the exception. If you have a weapon, that seems to be the 'sword' as well as the 'shield'. It is regrettable that SCA combat regulations don't allow us to take _full_ use of this... but neither do S&S folks get full use, and plenty of people get plenty good without ever worrying about shields (e.g. Yama Kaminari).

-Ii

[Kitadatedenka]

ogamibusho said:

I personally see no reason whatsoever to require sword and shield for a Samurai. I know all the reasons why people think it's a must, and I disagree. I consider

Well, I'm on the other side of that debate, which up here comes out in conjunction with combat archery far more than persona-specificity. It seems likely to me that I have reasons which are novel. But this is not the correct venue for this coversation. In any case, I doubt that either of us would convince the other of our position.

I like to take the (apparently minority) view that the SCA is a historical re-creation organization. Normans should fight with Norman weapons. Romans should fight with Roman weapons. Samurai should fight with Samurai weapons.

I quite agree, which is why my reasoning for requireing a shield authorization is novel, and centers around other considerations than the usual arguments, which are usually brought up by shield fighters.

Can you tell this is a sore point with me?

Yes, I can. Much about our combat system makes me sore too, and not on the field.

[Sakurai Takamori]

The lack of shields was just one more reason why a Japanese persona began to beckon me.

Our shire is fairly Norse-centric (seeing as Leif Ericsson dropped by for a visit here 1000 years ago)

When I started this about 15 years ago I went with the flow a bit, though I opted to go Saxon just to be different (there's always one of those in the crowd and yes, I am he! ;D)

That being said, having fought heater, kite and round, I rapidly came to the conclusion I hated shields with a passion.
Using a centre-boss can be fun, I admit, but I found myself hiding behind it....an influence I'd rather not have on my technique.
So I moved to two handed weapons almost exclusively....though I occasionally have a relapse.

I may get killed a bit more often by board wielders (no biggie) but I prefer the freedom of movement of being shieldless.

Now the Japanese persona is taking shape, I feel much more comfortable on the field....I may die but my honour is intact.

In an effort to wean others in my shire off the shield, I'm offering a new trophy at our next war camp.

It's an old chalice I picked up in England.....am thinking of calling it Lord Stanley of Scunthorpe's Chalice (AKA the Stanley Cup.....I figure any hockey fans might like something else to vie for )

o tsutome

Takamori

[Date Saburou Yukiie]

Takamori-dono,
Being shieldless is the natural state of Samurai, and it does not always mean more deaths...but I submit...to die is what a Samurai is ready to do...
Last Pennsic I had the distinctively lovely experience of spear fencing with an extremely tallented enemy spear fighter. We were in opposing shieldwalls, and I was on my left side of the bridge. We engaged, and it was clear that this chap was determined to not let me pick him off...
In fact, he decided he wanted my spear, and went so far as to drop his weapon as I lunged, and he grabbed the haft of mine...
Rather than fight him over it, I decided to be gracious and let him have the weapon...he pulled, thinking I would resist him, and he went way off ballance as I let go instantly...but his eyes got VERY big as I lunged into his line, pulled the katana secondary weapon from his belt, and killed him quite efficiently, with his own weapon...I got the chance to bend him over my knee and spank his hiney in the manner of "Kill Bill" and yelled "That is what you get for F@#$^$%##ing around with Yakuza! Now go home to your..."
Thunk...thunk thunk slam...poke...
Yes...I got pin cussioned...but it was a lovely thing!
With a shield in my hand I could not have accomplished that feat of daring do!
Date