kenshiro
New Member
Dad, newbie armourer, SCA fighter
Posts: 67
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Post by kenshiro on Jul 22, 2005 16:18:46 GMT -5
Greetings...
I ran a search but, it didnt return anything on this matter...
I am new to SCA fighting, I am currently learning how to fight with a Ansterroian BAS, Big Ass Shield, ....
In order to keep from looking like a total fool, wearing Japanese armour and fighting with a distinctly Eurpoean shield, I am wondering if there is any evidance that shields were used in Japan...
I googled it and returned a mention in tons of martial arts forum... They basicly boil down to argueeing matches between people about it..
Would a round shield be a viable solution ??
Or perhaps a buckler sort of thing that straps to my forearm ??
Or do I just suck it up and look a fool ??
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jul 22, 2005 16:38:24 GMT -5
Would a round shield be a viable solution ?? Or perhaps a buckler sort of thing that straps to my forearm ?? Or do I just suck it up and look a fool ?? Would not fighting with a shield be an option? Here are some other options: Gunsen/Tessen - iron ribbed fan Gumbai Uchiwa - butterfly shaped signal fan Tedate - small rectangular buckler used to block arrows (~14th C)
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kenshiro
New Member
Dad, newbie armourer, SCA fighter
Posts: 67
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Post by kenshiro on Jul 22, 2005 16:45:30 GMT -5
Basicly my shire and teacher are making me learn with a shield...
They are of the mind frame of, once you learn a style you know its limitations...
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jul 22, 2005 16:57:14 GMT -5
With that theory, you will want to learn with your "opponent's" shield.
Some Japanese 'wannabe' shield is not going to teach you how to handle a kite, round, or great shield.
And to answer the question - yes. Japanese used shields in their very early history. About 300-700, if I recall correctly (Kofun, maybe Nara). But that was before anything we could recognize as samurai
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jul 22, 2005 17:00:59 GMT -5
Viscount Gaius made his squire Fujimaki learn sword and shield because he (Gaius) is a S&S fighter and he thought it was a good idea that Fujimaki learn how it worked from behind the shield as well as having to face it. (It was NOT pretty either.) Once Fujimaki got to a certain level of basic proficiency, Gaius let him play with a single weapon. Fujimaki never looked back. Oops, don't let Mother know - she thinks I'm practicing my calligraphy. M.
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Post by guntheroforkney on Jul 22, 2005 17:09:18 GMT -5
with all new fighters I always tell them to start out fighting with weapon and shield,it makes it easier to get the hang of fighting. After a person has prgressed and wouldnt be a danger to themselves and others with other weapons then they should try other weapons.(even if they perfer weapon and shield)
That is just how I feel after 10 years continuous active fighting.
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Post by Date Saburou Yukiie on Jul 22, 2005 18:01:49 GMT -5
I was forced to learn fighting with a shield about 20 years ago in the East Kingdom. It was not a requirement...just what was done. I have always had a Japanese persona, and though I kept arguing that the Japanese did not, in period, fight with a sword and shield...I was forced to none-the-less. I authorized in weapon and shield, and on the same day authorized in katana. I have never picked up a shield again. It is an interesting and sometimes usefull thing to know why a shield works the way it does, and the fighter behind it, I might add...so I would not bar its learning from a Japanese persona... However...!!! unless you have the very very very early period persona where some shields were used...(and they were never Never used the same way they were in Europe...) I say throw away the shield thing...they are good for eating your final meal on...carrying dead romans back to their home province on, and for stopping arrows (tate) untill you can put an arrow into your determined foe... Just as my two zeni worth of advice...learn Katana, Spear, two weapon...if you are feeling sprightly, learn to use the fan as an off side parrying device. If you have an earlier period persona as I do, learn to shoot a yumi and a combat yumi. I think the "hang of fighting" can be had without learning to use a shield...If you learn to make your katana a defensive and offensive tool...you will get "the hang" of fighting... Just thoughts... Date
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Post by wbf on Jul 22, 2005 18:02:23 GMT -5
Okay then, I will just do what I have been doing then...
Thanks for the info !!
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Post by Date Saburou Yukiie on Jul 22, 2005 18:19:21 GMT -5
As Otagiri-dono alluded to...there are some very good shield fighters out there. Watch them...fight them...learn from them...just don't emulate them. They hide...they are not offensive...they are defensive. Samurai are not defensive...at least not good ones... There is a time for waiting...and there is a time for taking the fight to the enemy... Shields are waiting... More thoughts...now time for grilling some dinner! :-) Date
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jul 22, 2005 18:30:04 GMT -5
Miyamoto Musashi
The first thing I learned to apply from The Book of Five Rings.
You can apply this literally against a square or kite shield.
It looked like Ryokai-dono was learning it, too, last night, although against a shieldless opponent. (hint: the arms and legs are the corners of the body).
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adarael
New Member
Mishima no Akikata
Posts: 74
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Post by adarael on Jul 22, 2005 19:06:46 GMT -5
Wow. It seems like I'm one of the only people who's started learning two-handed weapons first... Namely naginata, tetsubo, greatsword.
Then again, more than half of our local group uses huge polearms or other great weapons.
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Kiyoshige
New Member
Hosokawa Genshichirou Kiyoshige
Posts: 33
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Post by Kiyoshige on Jul 22, 2005 22:14:49 GMT -5
In Calontir you are required to authorize with S/S as your first authorization, after that you can do what you want. I believe the premise is to get you aquainted with the behaviors of the weapon and shield and to make sure that the person can handle them appropriately. While I knew that Japanese did not use shields I had to do it. And I am glad I did. It gave the some skills to continue on with my other weapons training. This is the shield I use and also used to authorize with:
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Post by wbf on Jul 22, 2005 22:31:31 GMT -5
Nice is that based off the, correct me if I am wrong, Turtle Shell shield from the spear and shield style from Okinawa ??
Or am I smoking crack again ??
I really like that, I may have to lean in that direction for a shield...
Does it basicly work like a round shield ??
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Kiyoshige
New Member
Hosokawa Genshichirou Kiyoshige
Posts: 33
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Post by Kiyoshige on Jul 22, 2005 22:47:12 GMT -5
Umm it is based off a 4 way stop sign that I aquired (legally).
I would say that it does work like a round shield, just with a few angles...lol
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Post by Ryokai on Jul 23, 2005 0:26:01 GMT -5
Learning is a slow process though and it will take some time before I begin to take the "corners" method up to a level of great effectiveness. However you are right, I'm beginning to see and understand how it all works together. As for the question of a shield, I am fortunate in that my knight, and seemingly the rest of the barony, supports my choice not to use them any more than I absolutely have to. Eg: authorization. Secondly I am fortunate in that I have a knight that due to previous injuries prefers the two handed, or non shielded styles of combat. I understand the importance of learning the hows and whys of shields, if only to be able to work arround their limitations. I prefer to listen to, and watch others who have mastered the sword and shield and glean what knowlege I can from them. I'm sure it can be argued that it is necesscery for one to learn to use the sword and shield, especially for very green fighters, if only to teach them the basic movements that our style of combat demands. Although I came into the game with the distict advantage of youth, flexability and a firm enough grasp of how bodies move while in combat to support my choice to skip the shield entirely and move directly into two handed styles. My only advice on this particular situation; take what you can from your shield training, consider it an advantage when you move on to more advanced forms of combant. Remember, you might just have learned a few tricks that others might have missed by skipping shielded combat entirely.
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