Egawa questions

[Kitadatedenka]

On the ever-popular site, sengokudaimyo.com, it is stated that egawa is made from white leather with the rough side (flesh side, presumably), outward.

Yet, in all the pictures I see, the surface appears to be quite a bit smoother than any leather I've seen for sale.

So how dows one prepare the leather for this?

Secondly, it is also stated that a blue sharpie works acceptably. Again, in many of the pictures I see the dye looks to be green or black. I do understand that colors fade and change over time, but I also understand that what is done today may not have been done then. What evidence do we have of what the original dye composition was?

Lastly, on koberi. It is stated that the usual composition is white on black. There are also examples of white on red, and it is stated that this was earlier. What are the unusual combinations? Was the red background ever used with other than the 'crossed dots' motif, such as the back was?

If koberi is sewn to egawa, with fusegumi or otherwise, how does one keep it from bunching up when going around a corner, assuming that koberi is straight?

As one might guess, I'm attempting to plan out a kit upgrade, and I'd like to feel more comfortable about what I'd like to do.

As a last impertinent question, where is the egawa.pdf file? The pattern that I find most pleasing is the one with the leaves and 5-petaled flowers, but it seems a little difficult to figure out.

[AJBryant]

So how dows one prepare the leather for this?

I haven't the foggiest. I don't bother with tanning details. The thing is, real deerhide as gotten in Japan is soft and smooth as silk (on both sides) -- there doesn't seem to be a "finish only one side" mentality there. I suppose you could use the outside if you want if you're using cow.

Again, in many of the pictures I see the dye looks to be green or black. I do understand that colors fade and change over time, but I also understand that what is done today may not have been done then. What evidence do we have of what the original dye composition was?

Well, other than the fact that armourers are a tradition-bound lot and don't like change, we have nothing. Be we do have old manuals.

The ink was usually a deep blue-black -- indigo and carbon. Black is fine, and plain blue isn't dark enough. But the blue Sharpie is really dark when applied. Ideally, I'd like to be able to "mix" the inks from the black and blue Sharpie, but I don't own the company.

Lastly, on koberi. It is stated that the usual composition is white on black. There are also examples of white on red, and it is stated that this was earlier. What are the unusual combinations?

What do you mean "unusual combinations"?

Was the red background ever used with other than the 'crossed dots' motif, such as the back was?

Not that I've ever seen. Very early armours just had red, without the dots, but that was Heian period and went away c. start of Kamakura as the dots were more popular.

If koberi is sewn to egawa, with fusegumi or otherwise, how does one keep it from bunching up when going around a corner, assuming that koberi is straight?

As I said, the stuff is soft as silk. It's also about as thick as a sheet of paper or two. It's folded around edges (think "hospital corners").

As a last impertinent question, where is the egawa.pdf file

Try using the "open in a different window" command, and if it tells you there's no file, just type over ".pdf" with ".PDF" -- sometimes it's picky.

If there's something more specific you need, lemme know.

The hardcopy version of the manual that I'm working on now has nine different patterns for egawa. ;D


Effingham

[Kitadatedenka]

ajbryant said:

I haven't the foggiest. I don't bother with tanning details. The thing is, real deerhide as gotten in Japan is soft and smooth as silk (on both sides) -- there doesn't seem to be a "finish only one side" mentality there. I suppose you could use the outside if you want if you're using cow.

OK, that explains why it always looked like the top grain side to me. I was just wondering if there was a way to scrape the flesh side or something. But using the skin side will work for me, then.

The ink was usually a deep blue-black -- indigo and carbon. Black is fine, and plain blue isn't dark enough. But the blue Sharpie is really dark when applied. Ideally, I'd like to be able to "mix" the inks from the black and blue Sharpie, but I don't own the company.

Indigo and carbon does make sense.

What do you mean "unusual combinations"?

Sorry. The direct quote is 'usual appearance is a repeated white motif on black'. What are the unusual appearances, besides the white on red.

Not that I've ever seen. Very early armours just had red, without the dots, but that was Heian period and went away c. start of Kamakura as the dots were more popular.

Oh, well. See, I wanted to use red koberi because it relieves the all-black appearance, and flows nicely with the red hishinui. So naturally, I only want to use what pattern would be used on it. IF that's white dots, then it's white dots.

As I said, the stuff is soft as silk. It's also about as thick as a sheet of paper or two. It's folded around edges (think "hospital corners").

Cool. I'll have to go back and look for the folds. It does help greatly knowing what one is supposed to see.

As a last impertinent question, where is the egawa.pdf file

Try using the "open in a different window" command, and if it tells you there's no file, just type over ".pdf" with ".PDF" -- sometimes it's picky.
[/quote]

Umm, the link on the page is .PDF, and neither seems to result in a file for me.

Thanks.

[AJBryant]

Sorry. The direct quote is 'usual appearance is a repeated white motif on black'. What are the unusual appearances, besides the white on red.

Ah, I gotcha. See the PDF. (http://sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/patterns/shobugawa.PDF)

As for the egawa file... I just checked, and it is there, as is the shobugawa one. The egawa is sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/patterns/egawa.PDF , so maybe if you just paste these URLs directly into your browser they'll show up.

Umm, the link on the page is .PDF, and neither seems to result in a file for me.

Do you have a problem with the other PDF images, or just these?


Effingham

[Kitadatedenka]

Ah, I see the problem now. The link on www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch03.html is //www.sengokudaimyo.com/... whereas the direct link you have above is //sengokudaimyo.com/...

No www in your link. The shobugawa link seems to work, though.

Looking though the source to that page, it seems as though the egawa link is:
<a href="/graphics/patterns/egawa.PDF">
and the shobugawa link is:
<a href="graphics/patterns/shobugawa.PDF">

I'd bet that that leading slash is the cause.

And no, I don't have trouble with other pdfs. Plainly, my browser just couldn't figure out where the darned file was.

And I suppose I was confusing, what I meant was that neither .pdf nor .PDF was working.

Pardon me while I finally revel in egawa goodness...

(Aw darn, only one image)

[AJBryant]

(Aw darn, only one image)

That's why the BOOK will be much better.

Thanks for the heads-up on why the thing isn't linking through.

Effingham

[Kitadatedenka]

You're welcome.

Here's the pattern I like:
www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/image/42795888 (thanks, jo, great pictures)

It even has red koberi.

[AJBryant]

That's one of my favorite suits -- partly for the weird lacing choice. Very Nanbokucho.


Effingham

[Kitadatedenka]

Yeah, but how does it play in Senkogu? (The leather, anyway?)

[AJBryant]

It could show up -- maybe as a family heirloom thing. But it was out of fashion.


Effingham

[Kitadatedenka]

Dang! I think that the 'what I want' and the 'what they did' are at odds (says the guy who, when asked what he wanted for a sword, said, "12th century Bizen tachi in 16the century mounts")(I really need to post a pic of that blade, it's gorgeous).

[AJBryant]

Dang! I think that the 'what I want' and the 'what they did' are at odds

Oh, man. I can relate to this. ;D

Seriously -- think of it as a family heirloom. (One thing, though -- the "heirloom" shouldn't be "part heirloom and part modern" -- if you're making a nanbokucho armour, you need to think kozane.


Effingham

[Kitadatedenka]

Well, the namokucho stuff doesn't look right without oversized sode, to emphasize the narrow, but still boxlike, look of the dou. And I really don't much like wearing sode.

I guess I'll have to suck it up and use 'ugly' egawa. ;D I'll look though my pictures for a sengoku rig with red koberi.

Looks like the next iteration will have egawa and koberi, and be kebiki, but probably not kozane. Probably going to spring for a konnioi sort of lacing for it, though I'll be starting from black, thorugh the blues, to white.

[AJBryant]

Well, the namokucho stuff doesn't look right without oversized sode, to emphasize the narrow, but still boxlike, look of the dou. And I really don't much like wearing sode.

Actually, the nanbokucho was a period of really radical innovations in armour. That's when the hirosode and tsubosode really took off. Either of these would be an option.

The tsubosode is wider at top and narrower at the bottom, and roughly semicircular. (Given the shape, it more closely represents half of a cone.) It wraps around (more or less) the upper arm. I'm thinking about doing a set of these for my next suit.

Hirosode are flat, and wider at the bottom. Below is an image of hirosode I made for the new, improved armour manual (although the final image is B&W... sorry. )



Effingham

[fujiwara]

Effingham-dono,

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I've been looking for a curved sode that fits an earlier time frame. I guess I glossed over the curved part in the hundred or so times I've read your website Now...if I could only afford the $500 for the kozane...

Grateful,
Fujiwara