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Post by arashi on Feb 21, 2011 11:58:53 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Self admitted A-hole that does real research...
I came here first because there are people who may have known the answer to my question and would have saved me hours of doing my own research. After getting the brush off and no useful information I started doing my own research, and reporting the results I got back here for anyone else who may be interested in the results. After sharing the info that I did find, I got more rude responses.
People like you, who seem to think you are special because you have been around this community a little longer need a swift kick and to be reminding you are no better than anyone else. In fact, you are worse than everyone else because you can't be bothered to treat people with any kind of respect.
The community is better off without the likes of you, so go take your attitude and shove it.
Just for your information, I done plenty of my own research...proving not just once, but twice, that items everyone said never existed during the SCA time period in Japan did in fact exist...so...if and when I do find a period menpo I will make sure I point out to everyone I can that yourself and the others don't know what you are talking about, and would sooner just snap at someone than spend any time talking to them or looking for yourself.
To the rest of you divas...get over yourselves.
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Post by Matsushima Matataro on Feb 21, 2011 12:09:19 GMT -5
I am pretty new to all of this. I have yet to even authorize sword and board. My course of action is get armored up as quickly as possible. That means a ryu awase do made of blue barrel plastic (painted brown), lacrosse shoulders and gloves, hockey legs (under loose pants) and a loaner helmet.
The next step is to evolve my armor and garb, building pieces as I go along. Ultimately I want to be a person that people come to for information.
Authenticity, therefore, is a process.
I would like to mention that I owe a huge debt to AJBryant and Makiwara for the incredible amount of information that they have compiled and shared.
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Post by arashi on Feb 21, 2011 12:10:26 GMT -5
Ishida-sama
I did not choose to portray a westerner living in Japan because of what other people might say about it, I would never expect someone in the SCA to give me any problems over portraying a persona of a race that I don't look like. I chose to do so because I myself would feel uncomfortable portraying a race which I am not.
Regardless of what some people seem to think from this thread, I too strive for authenticity...as of yet, I am the only japanese persona I know who wears fundoshi under my garb to be more authentic.
I come here for information and get treated like a leper from several of the more well known names in the japanese persona community and people seem surprised when I get a little peeved.
Reactions like I have gotten here are why some people just don't ask, and do whatever they like or think looks cool.
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 21, 2011 12:47:47 GMT -5
I have not yet BEGUN to be snide. It is a defect in my character. See profile signature reference to Sei Shonagon. If you think I'm going to wilt and be all hurt because you're bringing the pain, remember what a makiwara is. Now then. Your choices are your choices. Your compromises are your compromises. No one can make them for you. Only you can. Likewise, only you can reap the consequences. "I made it that way because I think it looks cool," is honest. It should be sufficient. If that choice results in guilt, defensiveness, etc., maybe one should consider whether the choice was the best one. There are plenty of people playing this game who opted for "It looks cool and I like it," quite happily. Our Society allows for that spectrum of participation. Silly name* or not, it is a good thing. I based a textile design on a motif found on a 17th c. tsuba - after nearly a YEAR of dithering about whether I should or not because I had never seen that particular motif decoratively prior to 1600 in any medium. (Fans yes. Broken fans, no.) Then I made it because I really, really liked it. That's just me. What you do is what you do. *If you think I'm flip and snide, Zimmer Bradley needed a name to put on a park permit for an early event. We've been stuck with "Society for Creative Anachronism" ever since, for good or ill. And on that note, I am going to creatively deal with the fact that I have an entire truck full of dirty, dust-stormed clothing and camp accoutrements waiting to be checked for damage, cleaned, sorted and re-organized. You will, I hope, forgive my terseness. I've had a rough weekend.
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Post by Kurodachi no Mykaru on Feb 21, 2011 14:18:27 GMT -5
You know you did fine up until about here: Yea...the monkey menpo is ugly and silly looking, but it is documentable proof that not all menpo are human, oni, or tengu faces.
I'll probably just end up with a basic bargrill face due to price and all, if I do anything I may add a removable menpo that can attach over or in place of the bargrill. Haven't had much chance to talk to the armorer I was discussing the helmet with since I started researching, so I'm not sure how things will shape up at this point.
Arashi After that, it's what I said. No brush off. You simply didn't like the answer. Instead of "well they aren't correct in period but I like them. I'll do one as a fantasy piece. " Which no one would have objected to, it was but, but, but I waaaant. Tiger hunting was a popular free time sport *during the invasion of Korea" and I can think of a number of artifacts with tiger skin or tails. BUT as Eff said, culturally they weren't part of Japan. You initiated the rudeness. Like it or not, that is part of our group. If you really want a more strict living history experience, there are dozens of other groups out there that would be more than happy to accomodate you. It's not about time on this board. It's about work done in this field. Americansamurai hasn't been here long, but as an antique dealer he has plenty of hands on. Toraba has *1* post, but Trevor is another expert on Japanese armour (and 1 of 4 people outside of Japan I would accept a flat "that is wrong" from.) As for treating people with respect, 1 it is earned and 2 if you want it you have to give it. So far you're kind of lacking in both *on this board*. You're not an idiot and you obviously *want* a good appearance. Lose the attitude and listen. We *ALL* love Japan here and you could become a valuable contributor.
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Post by arashi on Feb 21, 2011 16:48:22 GMT -5
Perhaps I could have been more clear there, my intent was not and is not to rush out and have a tiger menpo made just because I like the idea and think it would look good no matter what anyone says.
My intention is to research to topic until I come up with more conclusive answers other than "argh, no" I am not going to drop hundreds of dollars into a helmet that people are going to roll their eyes when they see it, or *facepalm* over. If I do happen to have a tiger menpo made, it will be because I have found the proof that other people assume didn't exist, just like the previous research projects I have successfully undertaken.
So far in my research, I have looked at thousands of different menpo and kabuto, most of which seem to have been made to the particular owners tastes...be it the happy, smiley faces...the angry, demonic, intimidating faces, or the downright silly things like the monkey face I shared above. Nothing has given me any indication that they would have never done such a thing, but the fact that I have yet to see one leads me to continue looking.
I have seen tigers used as decoration on other parts of the kabuto as well as the rest of the armor, so I don't know if the lack of tiger menpos is purely a cosmetic choice, a more spiritual one, or just happenstance that no one ever asked an armorer to make one, so I will continue my research until I come up with a satisfactory answer. Then, once I have that answer I will weigh the choices of making a tiger menpo -vs- a more standard style.
If reporting the results of my research here is going to generate as much drama as it has so far, I'll just keep my findings to myself as the "researchers" here don't seem to like being questioned.
Now...this thread needs to be locked or deleted before an all-out flame war erupts and drives otherwise good members away. That or we need to return to slightly more civilized discussion of the topic at hand.
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Post by worldantiques on Feb 21, 2011 17:07:02 GMT -5
First I want to commend Arashi for taking the time and effort to do some research, as someone who spends an extraordinary amount of time pouring over old prints and Japanese sale and auction sites etc for images of rare and unusual Japanese and samurai items I have found its not wise to say ("the Japanese never did this"). I have been proved wrong numerous times. I myself only recently found the monkey menpo while searching online and was surprised to find it. I think its UGLY as hell but it is proof that at least one time an animal was used, and if it was done once there are probably more examples hidden away some were.
At the same time being antagonistic to people on this forum is unnecessary and will not get you any were, this is the ONLY forum of its type that I know of and one of the most civil forums I know of. Arashi should continue to look for more proof of animal menpo, who knows...there may actually be others and I for one will add any images found to my files. I would recommend making direct contact with dealers like Trevor and Robert Winters who have seen thousands of items in their careers and contacting Ian Bottomley who as curator of a museum may have seen more types of animal menpo.
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Post by solveig on Feb 21, 2011 20:10:49 GMT -5
Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! BTW, I'd love to know where I can re-enact Kamakura-jidai Japan in the US besides in the SCA. I wish to add that the broad scope of the SCA is one of its great strengths. Yes, there are some highly focused groups out there, but 1. As Makiwara hime points out they may not cover your own particular ethos of interest. 2. If they do exist, they may not be anywhere near you. 3. Most importantly, people greatly underestimate the advantage that wide scope gives the society not only in terms of numbers and impact, but the simple fact that if I need to learn something about late-Heian early-Kamakura japan which relates to Korea, China, India, or points West, there is a fair to midling chance that someone in the Society may be researching that because of their own interest in someplace other than Japan. Simple fact. Japan did not exist in a petri dish. Neither did England. Finally, the Society has a low-threshold for entry. This is actually another of its strengths. As a practical matter, we all have limited resources. But, we should all be trying to do our own personal best at recreating real stuff. The SCA is not the Tolkien Society.
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AJBryant
New Member
甲冑師 katchuu-shi
Posts: 1,972
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Post by AJBryant on Feb 21, 2011 22:50:38 GMT -5
The critical thing with menpo is that they are masks. Bipedal masks. Faces that would be appropriate on a biped -- even the weirder ones like tengu and the odd monkey face fit. I can't recall off the top of my head ever seeing a dragon mask -- and that would make a lot more sense, culturally speaking, than a tiger would. Most of the whacky ones are Edo, anyway.
I'm sorry you feel put upon, but you asked a question, and we answered it. Anything else is just defensiveness and posturing. <shrug>
Sorry you feel that way. Should we ignore questions in the future, or would you still like answers if you have them? 'Cause I have no problem answering questions or helping people; but you have to understand that I come from a background of Japanese history, not Japanese historical fantasy. If you clarify that what you want is the latter, that's fine -- information about what was typically done can then be just a benchmark you can used in deciding where you want to go with what you want to make.
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hiro
New Member
Posts: 49
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Post by hiro on Feb 22, 2011 4:03:55 GMT -5
"Can I make my armor out of Bamboo? "{{Ducks head and runs out!}}
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Post by Kurodachi no Mykaru on Feb 22, 2011 9:59:50 GMT -5
Last post had a much more civil tone (or at least it reads that way). That, especially after a blow up, gets respect points.
As Americansamurai said and I have said in the past, saying something *never* happened in Japanese armour is difficult because there are a lot of damn weird things out there. Most (98%) of the weirdness is post period however. I was living in Japan when TLS came out and even though I was prepared for Edo weirdness going in, I almost cried the armour was so bad.
In your research into straight double edged swords, did you find any reference to their actual use or were they temple gifts? Inquiring minds want to know.
As for the shields, finding anything is great, but equating Okinawa to Japanese in period is kind of like claiming 18th century Hawaii is American. If I *have* to use a shield in persona, *I'll* use a war fan. It is documentable AND way cooler.
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Post by arashi on Feb 22, 2011 12:11:40 GMT -5
The answer about all the menpo resembling bipeds is much better than a simple argh, no. I appreciate you taking the time to come back here and give a more detailed response after the thread initially turned ugly.
The straight double edged swords I have seen mostly seem to be repurposed Omi-Yari blades. After a war, they would unmount the blades from the long spear shafts and remount them in a katana style tsuka to save on storage space. I also found references to them giving some of these remounted blades to soldiers as gifts. A while back there was a short article over at swordforums.com with a picture of one of these swords in excellent condition.
The Shimazu clan invaded the Ryukyu islands in 1609, so technically a few years after period, and even after being invaded they still maintained a fair amount of autonomy for a few hundred more years, but its not a terrible stretch to think there were dealings with the islands before the invasion and that a few of those shields could have made their way onto the main islands of Japan though. I only ever use a shield when its required for the rules of a tournament or the like, so its basically a non-issue. But its out there for anyone who wants to use the info for themselves.
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AJBryant
New Member
甲冑師 katchuu-shi
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Post by AJBryant on Feb 22, 2011 17:24:27 GMT -5
The straight double edged swords I have seen mostly seem to be repurposed Omi-Yari blades. After a war, they would unmount the blades from the long spear shafts and remount them in a katana style tsuka to save on storage space. Cool. When I was in Florida, a friend and I used to spend our spare time taking care of the Japanese swords in the poison room. One of the swords was fascinating -- it was clearly a naginata blade that had been mounted as a wakizashi. We both thought it was funky, interesting, and very curious. You would have loved it. We did. (Sadly, have no idea of the provenance of the thing.) (Oh, Hiro-dono: smackity smackity thwap-thwap!)
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 22, 2011 21:49:14 GMT -5
The Shimazu clan invaded the Ryukyu islands in 1609, so technically a few years after period, and even after being invaded they still maintained a fair amount of autonomy for a few hundred more years, but its not a terrible stretch to think there were dealings with the islands before the invasion and that a few of those shields could have made their way onto the main islands of Japan though. I only ever use a shield when its required for the rules of a tournament or the like, so its basically a non-issue. But its out there for anyone who wants to use the info for themselves. Tinbe definitely seems to be the most likely option for the shield, if you need to use one for a tournament. I don't think of it as "Japanese", but there is definite contact between Japan and Ryukyu in this period. If you need more on that, I can look through some old stuff and see what I can find. Japanese merchants in the 15th century seem to be selling swords, fans, and other products at least as far as SE Asia, iirc. Or, go the straight sword and shield route by going really early (Nara period--though I've seen evidence on the peripheral in the Heian period as well). I've been considering something like that, but still have questions about how best to do the armor. That's what I normally think of when people mention shields or straight swords in Japan. -Ii
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Post by arashi on Feb 22, 2011 22:52:21 GMT -5
I should probably have mentioned that more commonly, they would store the omi-yari blades in a shirasaya, but occasionally they would remount some of the more exceptional blades into a katana style tsuka. There were a few yari makers out there whos blades were almost as prized as some of the famous swordsmiths. The Kanabo School was particularly known for exceptional yari blades.
I've only been fighting a short time, so I've not really run into the shield issue too much. I figure that with my persona I can go one of several routes when it comes to explaining a shield...being a westerner in Japan, I could just use a western shield and be done with it, or I could use a tinbe and say I picked it up in trade somewhere along the lines, or I could make a war fan or some type of parry device along those lines. More generally speaking I just don't use them, partially because I am terrible at using one, partially because it doesn't fit with my persona, and partially because I just don't care for the look of them.
Back on the subject of menpo, I still haven't seen any other animal related menpo besides the one monkey menpo. Financially, I will probably end up limited to a basic bar grill regardless of what my research turns up unless I hit the lottery or money just starts magically appearing in my wallet. If it were within my financial means, perhaps I would do something similar to Clang Armory's 'Oki-Tengui' kabuto, and have a hoate type chin and cheeks menpo with a bar grill for SCA purposes, but then have a removable nose portion that could be put on for special occasions...maybe even multiple styles, a classic nose and mustache for authentic stuff and a tiger one for fun and fantasy, etc.
The local armorer that I had been talking with is rather backlogged between current armoring projects, work, and school...so I'll probably be shopping around for someone to work with outside my local area. If anyone knows any armorers who are good with kabuto and willing to take commissions without a 2+ year waiting list (and preferably without having to sell a kidney on the black market to pay for)...I'm starting to window shop around to get a feel for just what is within my means and what isn't.
Arashi
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