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Post by mitsuhide on Feb 23, 2011 11:09:01 GMT -5
Two Ravens should be about healed something to do with his shoulder. The dangly bits for his helms he makes in leather to save weight. I would swing over to the AA and ask over there might get a good price to quality if they are looking for work as it were. Clang is back logged I wouldn't even ask.
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Post by worldantiques on Feb 23, 2011 14:26:35 GMT -5
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Post by worldantiques on Feb 23, 2011 15:13:00 GMT -5
Most (98%) of the weirdness is post period however. I was living in Japan when TLS came out and even though I was prepared for Edo weirdness going in, I almost cried the armour was so bad. As for the shields, finding anything is great, but equating Okinawa to Japanese in period is kind of like claiming 18th century Hawaii is American. If I *have* to use a shield in persona, *I'll* use a war fan. It is documentable AND way cooler. Thats one of the main problems with asking..."Did the Japanese EVER do this???....with over 1000 years of history you may find an example of just about anything.....if you limit your question to a certain period then your answer will be quite different. As for shields the same principle applies, there are verifiable accounts of shields being used during the mongol invasion (1200s) by samurai while on boats, the samurai did not use their armor when they were loaded into boats waiting to attack the mongol boats. Shields were used to deflect mongol arrows while the samurai waited to get close enough to attack the mongol boats. Shields were also used for sieges of castles etc, but I have never seen any picture or mention of a shield being used during the Edo period. Here is a link to some 13th century Japanese scrolls depicting weapons, armor and clothing worn during the mongol invasion of Japan. On scroll #1 samurai boats can be clearly be seen with shields along one side of the boat. The samurai weapons seem to be swords, naginata and bow with no yari being used at that time, unlike the mongols who are shown using spears. www.bowdoin.edu/mongol-scrolls/
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Post by solveig on Feb 23, 2011 19:49:22 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! Could you include instructions on how to navigate to the particular scroll that you are looking at. The scroll I looked at (which may be different from the one you are looking at) clearly showed the Mongols using shields, but did not show the Japanese using shields. Yes, there was a picture of Japanese in a boat, but I was not able to identify shields in this particular section of the scroll. Regardless, I looked at the scroll which is supposed to be from the 13th century.
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 23, 2011 21:22:50 GMT -5
Check out the 19th century scroll. Though it has some issues (described if you read about it), for the most part the various pieces, if not the order, seem correct. Go to the end of scroll 4 (or beginning of 5) for the battle in Hakata Bay. However, you still won't see the Japanese using shields there--not that I could find. You will see some pavises set up on the sides of boats, and some Mongolian shields being used, though I look at the size and they are probably pavises that are being picked up to withstand the barrage of incoming missiles. Could you use one of these and say that you picked it up at the Battle of Hakata Bay? Certainly, but it isn't a Japanese shield. That said, let's get this straight: The Japanese used shields throughout their history. The problem in the SCA is that Japanese shields, as they were used, are generally illegal--they are freestanding shields. Personally, I would *love* to have war with actual pavises (and Lochac style archery, but I digress), but rules in most places do not allow freestanding shields (and sometimes "hinged" shields are a no-no as well). Still, these "tate*" are common throughout period, and we do occassionally see people running forward with them (usually to cover themselves from projectiles as they rush forward). This is somewhat like picking up a door and running with it, and we usually don't see people fighting while holding onto them, except in dire circumstances. There are also hand-held shields, they just aren't predominant. Then again, in Europe, most people aren't really using shields by the time good plate armour is developed anyway, so that is just as much an anachronism. Here are some links: A trip to the Tokyo National Museum -- I distincly remember a sign saying "no photographs" by that shield, which is why I don't have it in my collection. The picture in question is a large iron shield and armor about 4/5th down the page. Here is one of my dream armors -- Not sure about the foot or hand protection, but I'd love to go onto a field kitted out in something like this. Another blog... - The shield here is about 23 pages down (at least on my screen). Here's a link to the shield itself (a replica): gurukun.img.jugem.jp/20070809_346030.jpgGoing back to the theme of this whole thread: Lots of stuff is out there, but it doesn't mean it all fits together appropriately. -Ii PS: You want a fun "out there" armor--look for the armor covered in bear fur. It shows up in an illustration on the cover of one of the Turnbull books, and it really makes the wearer look like an extra from the Japanese "Planet of the Apes". It is another one that I've fantasized about... *I believe the root here is "stand": ‚ ("Tate") = Shield —§‚ ("Tatsu") = To stand Œš‚ ("Tatsu") = To be set up iŒš•¨ = "Tatemono" = "Set up thing" = Buildingj
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Post by worldantiques on Feb 24, 2011 16:32:56 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Could you include instructions on how to navigate to the particular scroll that you are looking at. The scroll I looked at (which may be different from the one you are looking at) clearly showed the Mongols using shields, but did not show the Japanese using shields. Yes, there was a picture of Japanese in a boat, but I was not able to identify shields in this particular section of the scroll. Regardless, I looked at the scroll which is supposed to be from the 13th century. On the 13th century scroll #1 I believe about half way through there is a picture of a Japanese boat with shields lined up along the left side. This corresponds with written accounts I have read that describe the samurai's a repelling the Mongol invaders (the second invasion I believe) at sea instead of waiting for the Mongols to land, the samurai would go without armor on there boats, you can see images of grappling hooks mounted on poles in the scroll, these hooks were used to pull boats together for boarding. According to the written account the samurai would use shields of some type to protect themselves from the Mongol arrows. On land it is generally accepted (from what I have read) that the extra large sode worn at the time worked as a shield from arrows.
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Post by worldantiques on Feb 24, 2011 16:37:23 GMT -5
Check out the 19th century scroll. Though it has some issues (described if you read about it), for the most part the various pieces, if not the order, seem correct. Go to the end of scroll 4 (or beginning of 5) for the battle in Hakata Bay. However, you still won't see the Japanese using shields there--not that I could find. You will see some pavises set up on the sides of boats, One mans "pavise" is another mans "shield". "A pavise (or pavis, pabys, or pavesen) is a large convex shield of European origin used to protect the entire body. The pavise was also made in a smaller version for hand to hand combat and for wearing on the back of men-at-arms."
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 24, 2011 22:16:50 GMT -5
One mans "pavise" is another mans "shield". "A pavise (or pavis, pabys, or pavesen) is a large convex shield of European origin used to protect the entire body. The pavise was also made in a smaller version for hand to hand combat and for wearing on the back of men-at-arms." Your attempt to subvert my meaning by nitpicking the language doesn't change the facts that: a) I don't see the Japanese using shields (or pavises) in hand to hand combat--do you? I see them propping them up and using them to take cover from incoming missiles. b) The style of shield/pavise used in this fashion is illegal on the SCA combat field. Regardless of what you call it, that doesn't change what it actually is. Do you disagree? BTW, I'm not saying you can't take one of these doors into combat if you want. Having made one I know that *I* wouldn't want to lug it into combat and try to fight around it. I'd rather fight with a two handed weapon or two-weapons, unless a shield was required. -Ii
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Post by worldantiques on Feb 26, 2011 15:13:39 GMT -5
Your attempt to subvert my meaning by nitpicking the language doesn't change the facts that: a) I don't see the Japanese using shields (or pavises) in hand to hand combat--do you? I see them propping them up and using them to take cover from incoming missiles. b) The style of shield/pavise used in this fashion is illegal on the SCA combat field. Regardless of what you call it, that doesn't change what it actually is. Do you disagree? BTW, I'm not saying you can't take one of these doors into combat if you want. Having made one I know that *I* wouldn't want to lug it into combat and try to fight around it. I'd rather fight with a two handed weapon or two-weapons, unless a shield was required. -Ii Honestly Im not "nitpicking", to me a shield is a shield, from the door sized ones to the small arm shields, its when you quantify your question that the answer changes...as in "did the Japanese ever use hand held shields".....and even then I would hesitate to say "never"...thats when someone will come up with a print of one being used!!...I do agree with you though, hand held shields do not appear to have been used by the Japanese to any extent. I have several original prints of shields being used in battle, all of these are large and propped by a wood stake. The Japanese shields in the Mongol scroll are much smaller looking then the typical shield, and although they are lined up along the side of the boat and not being held it would seem to me that they would be a form of hand held shield since the person using them might have to move the shield from one side of the boat to the other depending on the direction the arrows were coming from, not quite hand held but not exactly "doors"either.
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Post by pallidus on Feb 27, 2011 14:59:00 GMT -5
Many people ask about using shields. I'm assuming so they can use one in SCA combat. Why not just learn to use a spear?
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Post by magnus on Feb 27, 2011 19:04:13 GMT -5
"And the SCA is not about fantasy. It is about history. "
Sorry, couldn't help but chuckle a bit at that comment. It's a shame that you are all under one umbrella organization, the "SCA". Some of you could easily fit into the category of "reenactment" or "living history" groups, given the level of authenticity in your gear (minus the modifications for safety of course).
But the sad thing is, there are seemingly a LOT more people who are content to use equipment or garb that was clearly bought from Walmart and intended to be 15th century (for example.). I don't necessarily buy into the financial restraint part of it, since clothing can generally be made for fairly cheap, if you are patient and know where to look. The armour is a different story, but let's face it, SCA combat isn't exactly historically accurate anyway, so that to me is a mout point.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I just wanted to say as a member of the reenactment community who has pretty high standards of authenticity (and no, I'm not a stitch nazi, I hate them too!), I'd like to applaud you guys for your high personal and group standards. It helps dispel the generalization many have of SCA members.
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 27, 2011 21:33:40 GMT -5
Honestly Im not "nitpicking", to me a shield is a shield, from the door sized ones to the small arm shields, its when you quantify your question that the answer changes...as in "did the Japanese ever use hand held shields".....and even then I would hesitate to say "never"...thats when someone will come up with a print of one being used!!...I do agree with you though, hand held shields do not appear to have been used by the Japanese to any extent. Okay. I apologize if I was overly critical of your response--you seemed to be just attacking the language and not making note of the arguments below that, which is why I responded as I did. I agree with the above. First of all, I'm wondering if we are seeing the same thing. There are several Mongols with fancy helmets that still appear to be on the Yuan side of the equation--so I'm not counting those shields. There is that one boat that has them hanging off the sides (great picture of the back of one sitting on the bow), but those don't look significantly smaller to me. "Door" was, perhaps, an exaggeration. Still, when I have seen them they are large, bulky, heavy, and unwieldy. And those were only 4' high or so. Considering what it would take to keep them together (they are almost always shown as two or three planks of wood, with other planks in front and in back), I've yet to see anyone claim that they were suitable for hand-to-hand combat *as found in period*. You could make a modern SCA shield that looked like one using modern materials, I'm sure, and it has been suggested in the past. Some tournaments (which people would like to fight in) require the use of a shield. Also, SCA combat is biased towards shields. Personally, I try to avoid them unless I have to, or I'm wearing a kit (usually western) for which it is appropriate. -Ii
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Post by worldantiques on Feb 27, 2011 21:47:22 GMT -5
First of all, I'm wondering if we are seeing the same thing. There are several Mongols with fancy helmets that still appear to be on the Yuan side of the equation--so I'm not counting those shields. There is that one boat that has them hanging off the sides (great picture of the back of one sitting on the bow), but those don't look significantly smaller to me. Those were the ones I was talking about, while certainly not hand held I am thinking that since they were on a boat these must have been light enough to move from side to side on the boat since you could not be sure which side you would be attacked from. Thats just my opinion based on what I see in the scroll. If true then these shields would be in a slightly different category than the large land shields. From what I was reading, the samurai would get along side the Mongol boats and they would use a grappling pole to secure their boat to the Mongol boats. Then the samurai would board the Mongol boats and attack using sword and naginata.
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Post by arashi on Feb 27, 2011 22:15:09 GMT -5
Many people ask about using shields. I'm assuming so they can use one in SCA combat. Why not just learn to use a spear? In the SCA, you are required to authorize in the use of weapon and shield before any other style, and there are occasionally tournaments where they specify what weapon styles the participants must use. Most of us who fight and do japanese persona, pick something other than sword/shield as our main focus. Polearm, spear, 2 handed sword, 2 swords, etc. Never know when the rules might require you to pick up a shield though, so being able to document a japanese shield would be better than just picking up a european shield if we can.
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 27, 2011 22:34:25 GMT -5
In the SCA, you are required to authorize in the use of weapon and shield before any other style, and there are occasionally tournaments where they specify what weapon styles the participants must use. That varies from kingdom to kingdom. For example, the West Kingdom requires demonstration of safety/proficiency in one weapons form during an authorization. It does not specify that it must be sword and shield. (See p. 41 of the PDF at www.westkingdom.org/files/MHB.pdf for the exact text.) We aren't in Japan and we aren't in Europe, we are in various laurel kingdoms of the Known World. The custom and practice in said kingdoms involves the use of shields. If one is required to authorize in S&S, one is certainly not required to continue using that form once one has authorized, except perhaps in certain tourney scenarios that specify the use of particular weapons forms. If a fighter wishes to be knowledgeable as to the skills of his opponents, knowing what to do with a shield and how to defeat someone using one cannot be a bad thing to know. Wait, what am I saying? I'm supposed to be all decorative and poetic. Never mind.
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