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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Nov 13, 2005 15:11:06 GMT -5
All images are from: www.rindo.com/105/kimono/obi-img/karaginu/karaginue.htmlAs you might guess, I am contemplating the mysteries of hime clothing. Sun Tzu tells us the wise general begins with calculations. Okay, I have a pretty good grasp of late period kosode. How do Heian period kosode differ? Men's hitoe have the sides open and the sleeves only partially attached. Women's hitoe have the sides closed. And the sleeves are attached how far along the body? The hitoe in this pic looks much like a furisode. Is the uwagi of the same pattern as the hitoe? It looks like the sleeve might be wider? But wouldn't that be bad? We want all those layers to show! Is the color difference on the collar due to the fact that the kariginu's karaginu collar is folded back thus exposing the lining? Again, is this basically the same pattern as the hitoe? If not, what are the major points of difference? Is this kariginu karaginu the same garment Hiraizumi-no-ason identifies as a kouchiki?
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Post by Nagamochi on Nov 13, 2005 16:06:31 GMT -5
Here's my two bits.... Question 1) As best I know the difference in kosode between time and gender is zilch, zero, nada. Question 2) I typically attach my sleeves so the seam ends a couple inches below my arm when fully extended, and start the side seam appx 3 inches below that. As for the fudisode bit, they are dressing her in a modern rendition of a karaginu mo, even if they're skipping on the false layers and going full out. Question 3) Sorry, haven't learned the term uwagi. However, yes we do want the layers to show, but caveat tempor! If this is from the video clip I'm thinking of, then keep in mind that the reveal on the sleeves is quite extreme for the finished outfit, to the point where the kouchigi ends up as strips of fabric looking much like a mens hitoe. Compare that to period examples of karaginu I've seen and this one sticks out like a sore thumb. Question 4) Not sure. I've only seen and made my hitoe with matching color eri. It may very well be a protective cover for all I know. And yes, the outermost layer is called a kouchiki/kouchigi. The fabulous Kass McGann has a wonderful, concise, and detailed breakdown of many various irome no kasane on her website www.reconstructinghistory.com . Though the last time I tried to access the kasane listing through her site I couldn't, so I just Googled 'irome no kasane' and it was one of the first ones to show up in the list. Now what's this you say about contemplating the mysteries of 'hime clothing? Might our most honorable moderator be considering to join a select few of us brave souls? Or has Mrs. Otagiri now considered joining us to play? Either way, yeah! Hope this helps, Nagamochi
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Nov 13, 2005 17:08:18 GMT -5
Pay no attention ... these are just notes to myself: Ao momiji / green maple) Hitoe: suô. (maroon) Kinu: kurenai, (scarlet) Kinu: asaki kuchiba (golden yellow) Kinu: ki , (pale yellow) Kinu: asaki ao (deep yellow (yellow/green)) Kinu: ao (bluish-green) Iroiro / varied colors Hitoe: kurenai. (scarlet) Kinu: suô, (pale maroon) Kinu: ki, (pale golden yellow) Kinu: kôbai, (plum-pink) Kinu: murasaki, (sprout-green) Kinu: usu iro. (lavender) Kôbai no nioi / lightening red maple Hitoe: ao. (bluish-green or deep red) Kinu: koki kôbai, (dark plum-pink) Kinu: kôbai, (plum-pink) Kinu: kôbai, (plum-pink) Kinu: awaki kôbai, (pale plum-pink) Kinu: paler awaki kôbai. (paler plum-pink) Nagamochi-hime, thank's for the tip ... here is Kass' page: www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/Irome.htmHiraizumi's page has the advantage of being color coded: www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.ch14.html
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 13, 2005 18:23:38 GMT -5
Ah, the latest Murasaki's Secret catalogue must be out! It's pretty specifically underwear in the Heian period, unless you're a peasant. I run about 6 - 8" down from the fold at the top of the shoulder in each direction for kosode. I go more like 8 or 9" on hitoe, itsusuginu and uchigi just because there's so much sleeve to manage if you have a lot of layers. I can see why you're thinking furisode in that shot. Furisode have closed fronts on the sleeves, like a kosode or kimono - just long and swingy. Proportionally, they're actually longer and narrower than Heian o-sode garments and some of them have a curved front edge. Here's a pretty one: That's why you have a dresser! Ah, found it, in Dalby's Kimono: Fashioning Culture. She describes visiting a studio in Kyoto where you can play dress up in karaginu-mo. They put her in an ensemble consisting of kosode, nabagakama, green hitoe, five layers over this (not clear if they were lined or unlined), karaginu and mo, clocking in at something like 40 pounds of silk. "I had mistakenly thought that the robes in a set must have each been cut smaller in order to reveal the edge of the one beneath but I discovered that the effect was created as each layer created more bulk, and it was the skill of the dresser that made the edges lie so neatly apart. As the woman arranged each robe, she held it temporarily with a narrow sash. With the next robe, she pulled the sash out, transferring it to the current one. Layer by layer, the sash worked its way out until the entire ensemble was held by this single strip of cloth. At the very end, the ties of the formal mo skirt held everything in place." Ah, here's the bit the wise general will appreciate while planning a siege of the womens' quarters. "The process of getting me dressed had taken about half an hour. After souvenir pictures were snapped, the dresser untied the formal skirt and the entire creation fell apart in a moment. Surely the knowledge that a woman's painstaking arrangement of her dress could be undone in an instant would not have been lost on Heian ladies - or Prince Genji." Dalby p. 235. You were too busy playing on the Group W bench when Kass said Karaginu means "Chinese jacket," weren't you? (I blame myself for being too much of a distraction! Sigh.) Here's a karaginu by itself: what you're seeing is a collar made of contrasting silk. As you can see, it's a much shorter garment. It's only worn with the mo (train) as part of the most formal court ensemble. This is a less formal outfit in which the topmost garment is a ko-uchiki. I've also seen it spelled uchigi and I think they're the same thing - but my language limitations prevent me from swearing to it as a certainty. www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/5.htmAgain, is this basically the same pattern as the hitoe? If not, what are the major points of difference? Is this kariginu the same garment Hiraizumi-no-ason identifies as a kouchiki?[/quote] And BTW, women wear karaginu. Men wear kariginu. www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/6.htmSaionj
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 13, 2005 18:29:33 GMT -5
Panty raid on the women's quarters, I'm tellin' ya....
S.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Nov 13, 2005 19:46:21 GMT -5
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Post by Noriko on Nov 13, 2005 19:48:31 GMT -5
I have a question regarding the hems of the various layers. The hems of the body (not the sleeves)- are they supposed to stick out and thus be layered or are the sleeves and collar the only part of the outfit that shows the layers below it? Thanks.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 13, 2005 20:02:11 GMT -5
I have a question regarding the hems of the various layers. The hems of the body (not the sleeves)- are they supposed to stick out and thus be layered or are the sleeves and collar the only part of the outfit that shows the layers below it? Thanks. Yes on the hems! How else is he supposed to fall in love with a lady of exquisite taste when all he can see is this? ayuyaman.hp.infoseek.co.jp/idashiginu.jpg * Saionji * moderator edit of insanely large image
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 13, 2005 20:05:17 GMT -5
OK, that was just weird - it wasn't that big on the original website. Shows the back of an informal Heian outfit.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 13, 2005 20:08:21 GMT -5
Don't tempt me!!!!!!
S.
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Post by Inoue Tsukiko on Nov 13, 2005 20:15:20 GMT -5
oo ooo oOOO!
Tempt me! Tempt me!
I'm easily tempt-able ;D
... and I'm going to need to train in a dresser.
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Post by Nagamochi on Nov 14, 2005 2:09:45 GMT -5
*goes into thousand-ri-stare epilepsy and starts drooling*
Inoue-hime, get yourself on down to Jararvellir and I would happily help you.
Ja ne Nagamochi
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 14, 2005 8:31:23 GMT -5
Use your sleeve, dear.
S.
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Post by Noriko on Nov 14, 2005 14:18:48 GMT -5
Ah, I thought just the sleeves were supposed to show the robes below, with a single hemline around the bottom of the robe. But I guess those were layered too. And fake layers do work very very well. I have a fake collar and sleeves on my pink kinu and aside from the fact that I haven't added a fake hem on the bottom, no one can tell the difference.
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Nov 14, 2005 18:05:46 GMT -5
Be careful. It's not just the effect of the layers at the edges. A critical element is the MASS of the garments. The itsutsu ginu, a "cheat" method common in period (where five layers were pre-layered) actually *was* five garments pieced into one.
Effingham
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