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Post by Please Delete on Oct 28, 2008 0:57:43 GMT -5
Yup, those are shields alright. Although the helmet on the guy looks a little funky--I think it is supposed to be one of those 'bird-beak' helmets (blanking on the name), but it just isn't right.
Shields were used by the armies of the ritsuryo period, where most men were conscripted, and tactics and organization attempted to mimic mainland armies. However, with the horsemen of the eastern countries, hand-held shields became increasingly obsolete.
-Ii
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Post by Kano Hiroyoshi on Apr 20, 2009 22:33:50 GMT -5
I saw a household called the Black Talon at Estrella this year. Many of their members wear japanese armor, and they all used tower shields. I didn't talk to them very much, but from the little I did it seemed like they weren't particularly interested in authenticity. My point is that even though the japanese didn't use personal shields the way those in the west did, there are japanese groups in the SCA that use shields. There's a precedent, but I don't plan on using one in either case.
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Li Guang Ming
New Member
Go Forth and Show Them Your Influence
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Post by Li Guang Ming on Apr 21, 2009 13:24:56 GMT -5
remember SCA is a game. many people use the tools available for the game, period or not.
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Apr 25, 2009 23:04:52 GMT -5
Well, I've heard of (And I can't really site the source as excellent) Samurai using their helmets in a technique for arrow dodging. If you wanted, I wonder if you couldn't take one of the jingasa and use that in a similar fashion.
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Post by tengumoon on Apr 26, 2009 0:28:20 GMT -5
I could imagine using a jingasa as almost a buckler shield style...
but for the life of me I cannot imagine a samurai actually picking up a jingasa with the intent of using it as a shield
In all my time training Japanese budo (with a fair amount of historic tradition behind it) there has never been a hint of shields other than using a weapon to block things
The closest I have ever noted is the use of pavise like structures tho I have never seen them as portable structures
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Lash
New Member
perfection isnt an end result but a path to walk upon with your eyes closed.
Posts: 422
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Post by Lash on Apr 27, 2009 21:07:16 GMT -5
i fought for and against the black talon their shields are definately large enough to qualify for tate ! lol !
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Post by maredudd on Jul 1, 2009 5:17:12 GMT -5
Since it is possible (nay, likely) that I will face being told "First round is sword and shield" in SCA tournaments, I have made a fan-shaped buckler. It can be seen on my livejournal page maredudd1066.livejournal.com/
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Post by mrcunningham on Jul 1, 2009 8:13:13 GMT -5
Wow, Maredudd, what's that made of?
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Post by maredudd on Jul 1, 2009 8:15:09 GMT -5
It's just SCA standard 1/2" ply, edged in garden hose, covered in lightweight canvas, then painted.
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Post by Kano Hiroyoshi on Jul 1, 2009 11:05:24 GMT -5
It has holes in it. Do you hold it or strap it on?
I'm finding more and more that I enjoy fighting with a shield, so I've been wracking my brain how to do so without being horribly un-japanese. You've just given me an idea.
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Post by mrcunningham on Jul 1, 2009 11:56:50 GMT -5
Wow. Slick.
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Post by roninpenguin on Jul 1, 2009 22:30:58 GMT -5
Myself and a friend here in Atenveldt made fans shields out of aluminum, used a break press to get the "Ribs" into it. He actually enjoys fighting shield so he uses his, mine needs to be strapped and edged. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of him using his at Estrella this past year.
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Post by maredudd on Jul 2, 2009 8:47:13 GMT -5
The holes are for a leather handle - whilst I would like to (and may later) have a fan that I grip correctly, it would have to be constructed more like a rattan dagger with a foam fan trailing behind it. Also I have very weak wrists and am not confident of my ability to control it as a shield if I held it correctly.
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Post by solveig on Jul 2, 2009 8:49:17 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Generally speaking, the Japanese did not use shields. I know of no evidence for fan shaped shields in Japan. If you are thinking of a "martial art" called "tesenjutsu", as far as I can tell it was fabricated by the author of Secrets of the Samurai. Fans and fan shaped implements were used by generals as signaling devices. There was a kind of large ribbed fan mounted at the top of a pole and a sort of hour shaped fan held in the hand. Soldiers depicted in combat have them using: naginata, spears, archery, and firearms. You also see limited use of swords. Now then, there is one famous picture of someone using a very small rectangular shield during a famous raid on an official residence. The shield in question is longer top to bottom than side to side. It is shown held perpendicular to the arm by a center mounted vertical handle. Prior to that, you might try to find something among the haniwa figures from pre-historic Japan. These figures are rather similar to Chinese haniwa figures. blog.livedoor.jp/kazusanosuke71/archives/cat_50037610.htmlblog.livedoor.jp/kazusanosuke71/archives/cat_50037610.htmlFinding good pictures of pre-modern haniwa online has becomecomplicated by a haniwa fad in Japan. www.museum.yokosuka.kanagawa.jp/retrieval/search.php?q=&q_category=2&q_shurui=B04&q_place=&cmd=list&maxline=16&target=&orderby=&desc=&page=2&SID=3e20964a3d4ffc2f508fdbcc16db6bbfI haven't been able to find a shield used by a pre-modern haniwa figure online as yet. Another possibility for hand shields in general use is early classical Japan where the Japanese deployed Chinese style armies. In this case, you would be best to look for T'ang dynasty Chinese military history sources. The Japanese did use shields called 盾 tate. During the early imperial army period, you might see something like this: After some serious searching, I have found an image of tate actually in use during battle in a period which you are probably more interested in: teitodennoumou.blog84.fc2.com/blog-entry-3.htmlYou will quickly notice that the Japanese were doing something far more akin to the Calontir shield wall than individual "sword and board" fighting. Aside from having separate shield carriers whose primary job was to move the shield around, please also note that these shields had a monopod prop which allows them to be set up as stationary self-standing devices. They are commonly shown set up as short walls in in depictions of military camps.
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Post by konrad on Jul 2, 2009 14:22:40 GMT -5
I would think that challenge of finding a historically suitable Japanese one-handed defensive armament to be used in conjunction with a Japanese one-handed offensive weapon for a member of the Samurai class would be difficult enought as to be considered nigh impossible. You'll probably end up having to 'stretch to far' to get a shield or some other blocking device to the point that it overshadows what you are trying to recreate with the rest of your equipment. If you're 'required' to learn sword and shield then make a T-tunic and viking pants to cover yourself up and practice sword and shield. If you want to wear your japanese kit then fight with historical japanese weapons. Don't cross the streams! Just my opinion of course.
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