ninjas in the SCA?

[Shinomori Haku]

Feb 17, 2012 2:22:04 GMT -5 Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa said:

This is my new favorite thread on the whole board.

In all seriousness, Effingham-sensei has it right here, historically. Doing a public ninja persona isn't period, even if shinobi were.

Also, if you view the SCA as a long term commitment, you're going to want a persona you can live in. I can't imagine an "out" ninja working well. What am I supposed to call you? Do you want to wear full-body black at hot summer events? The idea may sound fun, but you should think about whether you will enjoy it a year from now.

in one opinion hes "right" but can some one whos never practiced real ninjutsu truly respect it? once again.. the full body black (shinobi shokuzu) was for nighttime fighting only for events ill most likely be in normal japanese close. its not a matter of fun for me its my life choice

[Yawata Saburou Tadamori]

Feb 20, 2012 2:41:58 GMT -5 Shinomori Haku said:

but its there honner that will suffer when i beet them in tournaments and events

Be ready to back that up... A LOT! Humility is a good quality for the fighting man or woman

[Please Delete]

Remember that we recreate pre-1600 history, so you are going to want to look at pre-1600 shinobimono.

When you mention shinobi shokuzu, I assume you mean shinobi shozoku (忍び装束). Do you have evidence of it before 1600?

The problem I have with all the research I've looked at is that I don't see anything to classify someone as shinobimono (aka ninja). The root of the word, "shinobi" is used in love poetry of the Heian period and means "to endure" (e.g. to endure loss, etc.). From what I've seen, "ninjutsu" is, originally, just another discipline of martial arts (in the same way that reading maps, tactics, etc. are all included in ancient manuals). What I'm not sure of is if we see a school of ninjutsu or people who primarily considered themselves shinobimono.

There is also a lot of misinformation put out by proponents of ninjutsu, whether purposely or not. To be fair, there is a lot of misinformation put out there by most martial arts, purposefully or not. Martial artists are generally focused on the living art. They are not usually focused on the history; tradition, yes, but not so much history. The idea that the art today is as it always has been is easy and comforting, but not true to reality (and I know some schools that have been re-examining that).

So, if you want to seriously study historical ninjutsu, you are going to need to figure out what that means to you, and how serious a study you want to do. It means possibly questioning what you have learned, and looking beyond "tradition" to the actual history. This is where it gets really frustrating, because of the lack of information (especially if you don't have the Japanese language skills you need for going to source material). A lot of the stuff in English comes from Hatsumi-sensei and his students; unfortunately, his cannot be taken as an objective voice such as we would prefer.

Another thing to realize is the nature of the SCA. The SCA does a lot of persona play, but this is not a LARP. In the end what matters is what you do, not who you think you are.

Also, the SCA is a Society that (despite certain individuals) holds honor and chivalry as high ideals. Actively promoting deception, assassination, etc. will be highly frowned upon (though it can make for good schtick in the right scenarios). If you promote honor, show kindness to others, and are willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with your brothers and sisters, then *that* is what defines you in the SCA; not some made-up backstory to a character, but who you are inside.


-Ii

[Saionji Shonagon]

Feb 20, 2012 2:41:58 GMT -5 Shinomori Haku said:

but its there honner that will suffer when i beet them in tournaments and events

This writer humbly suggests that the only honor one has control over is one's own.

[laurentk]

I have been thinking about this topic for several days.

Ben Franklin said something like, "revolution was legal in the first person, as in 'our revolution', and illegal in the third person, as in 'their revolution'". I can't find the exact quote, but perhaps if you were "our shinobi" and not one of "their shinobi", you might be able to fit in.

By way of example, there many personas, depending on your perspective, could be "bad guys."

In An Tir, we have a plethora of viking personas. Vikings are often known for, well, "going viking" (raiding, pillaging, pirating, kicking small puppies, etc.) That said, when a Viking was at home, they acted as responsible members of society.

We also have a few people who are, very openly, pirates. If a particular pirate has not made himself a nuisance to the local crown, they may be allowed to be not hung--if you catch my meaning. If they work for said crown, they may even be respected in their homelands.

If you contract yourself to your local baron, duke, or King (if you have the contacts) you could fit into the "counter-espionage" arrangements of that noble, and allow you to be (somewhat) open about your profession.

That said, you will have a bunch of work in front of you to make it work.

[Shinomori Haku]

Hattori Hanzō (服部 半蔵?, ~1542[1] – December 23, 1596), also known as Hattori Masanari (服部 正成?), was a famous ninja master of the Sengoku era, credited with saving the life of Tokugawa Ieyasu and then helping him to become the ruler of united Japan.

Hino Kumawaka (日野 熊若?) (14th century), born Hino Kunimitsu (日野 国光?), childhood name Kumawakamaru (熊若丸?), was the son of Hino Suketomo, the dainagon (high counselor) to Emperor Go-Daigo. Kumawaka himself was also an attendant to Emperor Go-Daigo, with whom he is sometimes thought to have had a pederastic relationship.

Yagyū Sekishūsai Taira-no-Munetoshi (柳生石舟斎平宗厳 1529 - May 25, 1606) was a samurai in Japan’s Sengoku period famous for mastering the Shinkage-ryū school of combat, and introducing it to the Tokugawa clan.


Ishikawa Goemon (石川 五右衛門?, ? - October 8, 1594) was a semi-legendary Japanese outlaw hero who stole gold and valuables and gave them to the poor.[1] Goemon is notable for being boiled alive along with his son in public after a failed assassination attempt on the civil war-era warlord Toyotomi Hideyoshi. A large iron kettle-shaped bathtub is now called a goemonburo ("Goemon bath").

all of the men listed here were openly shinobi and i can still list meny more

The use of disguises is common and well documented. Disguises came in the form of priests, entertainers, fortune tellers, merchants, rōnin, and monks. The Buke Myōmokushō states,
Shinobi-monomi were people used in secret ways, and their duties were to go into the mountains and disguise themselves as firewood gatherers to discover and acquire the news about an enemy's territory... they were particularly expert at travelling in disguise.
A mountain ascetic (yamabushi) attire facilitated travel, as they were common and could travel freely between political boundaries. The loose robes of Buddhist priests also allowed concealed weapons, such as the tantō. Minstrel or sarugaku outfits could have allowed the ninja to spy in enemy buildings without rousing suspicion. Disguises as a komusō, a mendicant monk known for playing the shakuhachi, were also effective, as the large "basket" hats traditionally worn by them concealed the head completely.

on that note SCA is a game for people to enjoy i find this link www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/ninja.html not only wrong but offensive. this is his opinion on how the game should be played. public ninja were period. other wize how would ieyasu tokugawa rescued his family back from mitsunari? he hired ninja! how did he find them? Hanzo was vary open of his abilities. not every one whats to do ninjutsu you're way. and ninjutsu shouldn't be a taboo subject ether. if u dont like it u dont have to be a ninja. and if some one wont like u because u are oh well u probably dont want to associate with them anyway . the people i have fought with have been ''cool you practice ninjutsu , i dont care ill fight you anyway ur just another japanese persona'' and we fight honorably, not all ninja are dishonorable. if u want to believe stereo types fine but that dons't make it right. its sad when the only trouble i have run into is the other japanese persona instead of having fun because we have similar interests you will argue with me . ive already had to make one samurai look like a fool i dont want to make another one... thats not how i wanted to play. btw... im openly a shinobi and i have gotten my 1st award. and am close to getting authorized in rapire even thu i use ninja weapon's . the english personas take advantage of the fact im shinobi and use me as a guard. if jugging some one based on there persona and not there actions is the SCA way i will change the stereo type that is shinobi

[Deleted]

Apr 2, 2012 21:06:13 GMT -5 Shinomori Haku said:

Goemon is notable for being boiled alive along with his son in public

So, extremely negative reactions to shinobi are documentably period?

[Shinomori Haku]

that was because goemon was openly stealing. his actions should not lower hanzos honorable deeds

Attachments:

[Momotaro Masato]

haku said:

a shinobi is a tool nothing more. he should not care about titles its about getting the jon done. this is a real shinobi. as for ur history, ninjutsu originated in china and was perfected in japan. its not historically accurate to say no ninja made it to gaijin lands. meny scrolls and info was lost when the mountains of iga and kouga were attacked.

If you don't care, then don't worry. This is the SCA, and we strive to be as close to period as possible...but there is room for being a little "creative" where there are holes in our collective knowledge.


You will not be kicked out of an event for running around in a a black ski-mask. You will, however, find it very hard to enjoy the game and make connections with people when you keep a closed mind. You ask for reasons why it isn't done, and when are given reasonable answers - you blatantly try to refute them with hearsay and opinion... Ii-dono could not have given a better answer to your question.

I'm from a mercenary house in the SCA. We get a lot of flak from over-eager kingdom folk, but it's part of the game and we love playing the role. We win honor and infamy through our actions on the field, and our fufilled contracts. Not because we call ourselves "mercs".

But as an assassin, will you really sneak into people's camps and kill their commanders? Poison their water supplies? No. If you've ever been to an event, you know trespassing into people's camps is a heavy faux pas and can result in some devastating vigilante corporal punishment if it were under those circumstances.

You can, however, market yourself as assassin and still head-hunt for crowns and white belts on the field. Good luck sneaking up on opposing forces in the daylight, then trying to take out some of the best fighters the knowne-world has to offer. Good on you if you can pull it off.

In short, there is a lot of information here on tousando. If you TRULY disagree with people here, have your own facts for it's place in period, who are any of us to stop you? We can only go so far as to give our advice.

haku said:

but its there honner that will suffer when i beet them in tournaments and events

I'm a heavy fighter, but I just picked up my cut and thrust katana at estrella. I would love to meet you and discuss this topic further.

Also:

[Shinomori Haku]

lol.... black ski mask... it looks like you picked and chose what to hear instead of hearing the whole thing, ive stated what a real ninja is over and over again.... one ninjas dont ware ski masks... only if its a raid or a assassination maybe if that but its vary unlikely. but my assassins dressed like ur men will have an easy time when ur focusing on me and if i or one of my men die or get caught during an assassination were ready to suffer the consequences, ''a shinobi is a tool nothing more''. but just because im a shinobi dons't mean im interested in assassinating random people also i asked why bringing up ninjutsu is like bringing up abortion to japanese persona. some replies have been vary helpful and kind like Ii Katsumori's and laurentk reply's and others have been vary negative. if you taulk my quote personally
''but its there honner that will suffer when i beet them in tournaments and events'' and wish to challenge me thats fine as well if u beet me oh well thats whats expected but like i sied if u lose to me a ''dishonorable cur'' its ur honner that gets hurt. like i sied ive already dishonored one samurai i rely rely dont want to do another... im not here to ruin ur game i want to be apart of it my way . im already out of my comfort zone being limited to samurai weapons only due to most ninjutsu weapons and tactics not being legal in rapire or heavy. also i stated my awards to prove another comment wrong.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Apr 3, 2012 14:58:44 GMT -5 Momotaro Masato said:

This is the SCA, and we strive to be as close to period as possible...but there is room for being a little "creative" where there are holes in our collective knowledge.

(Rubs eyes, looks around again.) Oh, if that were true, how different our Society would be. In reality, the SCA is comprised of a wide spectrum of people and viewpoints. Some strive for authenticity, some just want to show up and have fun.

And some think the game should be European personas only and that we non-Westerners shouldn't be messing up "their" game. Some of us have had to deal with this sort of thing. It's not always easy and it can be downright discouraging.

Haku-dono, if you can't hack criticism, you will not have a good time portraying a Japanese, much less a shinobi, particularly given the pop culture stereotypes most folks have in their heads.

I'm from a mercenary house in the SCA. We get a lot of flak from over-eager kingdom folk, but it's part of the game and we love playing the role. We win honor and infamy through our actions on the field, and our fufilled contracts.

Peach-dono, you come visit me any time you like and bring your friends. I think I've finally convinced Lash-dono that I'm not too uppity to socialize with mercenaries.

[Shinomori Haku]

quote ''And some think the game should be European personas only and that we non-Westerners shouldn't be messing up "their" game. Some of us have had to deal with this sort of thing. It's not always easy and it can be downright discouraging.''

yes! Saionji chan! thats what im trying to fix but its japanese personas and ninjutsu, the problem im having is instead of us working together its been a up hill battle. i think the funnyist thing is when i dress like shinobi and say im a ninja, people have asked me??? what?? wears ur mask and black pajamas and blow me off and i end up assassinating them lol. i hate to use anime as a refrance but the pic attached is what i ware . i am a shinobi but i am vary honorable. im not some bandit. i work my my lord and get my hands dirty for him alone. ya some times my honer takes a hit but in my barony every one loves me because of how much work i do and how much charity work i do for my barony. do i get asked to hey do this prank to this guy . ya all the time but i have yet to get caught or admit to my actions lol

Attachments:

[Shinomori Haku]

Apr 3, 2012 17:48:37 GMT -5 Shinomori Haku said:

quote ''And some think the game should be European personas only and that we non-Westerners shouldn't be messing up "their" game. Some of us have had to deal with this sort of thing. It's not always easy and it can be downright discouraging.''

yes! Saionji chan! thats what im trying to fix but its japanese personas and ninjutsu, the problem im having is instead of us working together its been a up hill battle. i think the funnyist thing is when i dress like shinobi and say im a ninja, people have asked me??? what?? wears ur mask and black pajamas and blow me off and i end up assassinating them lol. i hate to use anime as a reference but the pic attached is what i ware . i am a shinobi but i am vary honorable. im not some bandit. i work my my lord and get my hands dirty for him alone. ya some times my honer takes a hit but in my barony every one loves me because of how much work i do and how much charity work i do for my barony. do i get asked to hey do this prank to this guy . ya all the time but i have yet to get caught or admit to my actions lol

ps. im am also thankful every one is kind towards my poor grammer and spelling ^^

[Saionji Shonagon]

(-chan? Did he just call me -chan?)

Haku-dono, we REALLY don't know each other that well.

[Anarchopunk]

My understanding of the Yagyu Munetoshi ninja thing is that he simply has a large hole in his biography; he seemingly disappeared for several years. I could easily be mistaken on this, however.

That aside, Haku-san, you are left with a dilemma, the parts I will summarize as follows:

1) You want a ninja persona
2) You disagree with most of SCA society on what this means

So, either solve one of those elements, or disregard the criticism.

The best suggestion I've heard comes from one quite esteemed on these boards (and Mr Bryant will hopefully forgive my paraphrasing): Don't tell anyone you're a ninja. Do your espionage thing, while in the guise of a perfectly respectable person. If you get a daimyo, tell him. And no one else.

If you need to be able to interact with society at large as a ninja for this to work, you will likely have a problem.

Whatever approach you take, good luck and have fun.