ninjas in the SCA?

[Shinomori Haku]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHLHq4HTpXY&feature=plcp&context=C4eefc42VDvjVQa1PpcFPmXU1ZCDtpu1aZNpCc9WM3ThQEGFVq8sQ%3D

the hojo ninja clan. some more evidence that ninja were real and some were open about it.

[Lash]

Haku-dono i have been quiet listening and trying to look outside the box on this thread and i saw something reaccuring.
I think the negative connotation is actually pointed at the word ninja, not shinobi or ninjutsu.
several of your posts stated that it was frustrating for you to have japanese personas look down on ninjutsu.
I dont think that is correct noone here would put down a martial art of any form as most here ARE martial artists including myself.
anyone who tells me that Aikido or goju-ryu karate is crap would have some splainin to do.
so i think the problem is with the word Ninja.
and the common western view sensationalized by media wich you stated earlier you dont like either.
another thing i noticed is that IMHO, you would like respect and honor given to ninjutsu and its raikishi - dento.
I have a very good friend who has studied ninjustu for 20 years and is a member of the denver ninjutsu school. he has said over and over that he despises the term ninja because of the stigma attached to it.
he prefers ninjudoka more than anything else as its more of a applicable title as he is a student of.
I see no reason why you cant play a shinobi as long as you know that there will only be a few who you will trust with this knowledge ( and that could be fun to) and maybe start a small list of daimyo that you do work for.
who knows after a cpl years you may be doing secret missions for opposing crowns lol.

the offensive post you saw on the sengoku wasnt directed at nijustu but at the anime rendition of ninja . if you go a reread it with an open mind you will see that it actually paraphrases what you said earlier about the espionage prowess of shinobi being shopkeepers,firewood gatherers and such.

if you really arent bothered by others opinions then play at what you play in the sca. who cares what others think including myself.

“When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everyone will respect you.”
¯ Lao Tzu

[Lash]

oh and by the way my familly Black Company are dirty mercs so if you ever are without a contract come talk to us. heehee!!!

[bovil]

Apr 6, 2012 17:48:06 GMT -5 Lash said:

so i think the problem is with the word Ninja.
and the common western view sensationalized by media wich you stated earlier you dont like either.

Well, there is that. The popular perception of "ninjas" has about as much to do with history and the SCA as "golden age pirates."

There's plenty of documentation on pre-1600 pirates and privateers, and none of it is parrots, "aaaarrrh! shiver me timbers!" or Captain Jack Sparrow. That's a mix of 18th and 19th century history (with a big dollop of romanticism on top).

There isn't much credible documentation on pre-1600 shinobi or ninjas.

While a number of modern ninjutsu traditions claim a historical lineage, none have been particularly good at providing evidence that supports their claims or evidence supporting their views of the place of ninjas in history.

If you want credible sources and can't read medieval Japanese, our own Eff-sensei isn't a bad person to start with. He is a noted translator of medieval Japanese texts and scholar of Japanese military history.

If Eff-sensei's not good enough, his publisher also publishes Stephen Turnbull (pretty much the guy who gets ALL the recognition in the greater world of Japanese history scholarship). Turnbull's Ninja AD 1460-1650 (Osprey, 2003) is excellently sourced from historical Japanese texts and isn't laden with the baggage that authors with ties to modern ninjutsu traditions carry and push. It's a little more difficult to find a copy of Turnbull's out-of-print Ninja: The True Story of Japan's Secret Warrior Cult (Firebird Books, 1991) but it's a bit longer and more fleshed-out.

[Shinomori Haku]

i strongly believe no marshal art is better than another. but the skill level of the participant. i now have 10 shinobi i control, so im slowly becoming a daimyo. we would love to scout for ur army im sure ull find some use to us lol. i also use a ninja-to as my sword sometimes. it IS HISTORICALLY INACCURATE but i like he way it looks lol but most times i will have my ko-katana and the rapire vershon of it on me. the in all dissuasion of wanting to be openly ninja was when my whole clan wanted it. the previous daimyo was vary hush hush about us and shunned anything we ever sied about ninja ever. it got vary annoying. and he wanted to step down and become more like a ronin so now its up to me to handle what i have lol... its been hard at times but i give 100% of my self to my people.

[roninpenguin]

See but the thing is Ninja would not announce that they were Ninja and would try to fit in with the culture around them, thus the joke that they would dress English/Spanish/etc.

And like most good humor there is a lot of truth in that.

To play a Ninja you would have to create a (or several) NON-ninja persona to use as cover identities. You may have one or two people who would know that you are a Ninja that would be your cut out for giving you missions, but as a whole you wouldn't tell anyone, otherwise you would no longer be able to do your job as a Ninja.

Think of it like Special Forces. If they are doing an Op in hostile territory they don't go around with a sign saying "SAS" on it or anything, they try to blend in as much as possible (even using operatives whose ancestory let them pass for locals), and that is exactly what the Ninja were in period Japan, special forces.

So, in order to play a Ninja properly you would build a different persona, have one or two confidants, and then never tell anyone you are a Ninja until maybe you are either A) Planning on changing persona or B) Have gotten to the point that you would "Retire" from active duty.

Honestly this makes for a lot of fun because ANY of us on this board could be "Ninja" but just playing persona so well that no one would know it. =-D

[Shinomori Haku]

sigh I rely thought this was over now lol ''So wat you're saying is '', in order to play a Ninja properly you would build a different persona, have one or two confidants, and then never tell anyone you are a Ninja until maybe you are either A) Planning on changing persona or B) Have gotten to the point that you would "Retire" from active duty.'' soooo what ur saying is to be a ninja i must never act,think,do anything a ninja would do.... and being a ninja means pretending to do something else? .... so i play this game not doing anything ninja like at all ever... how is that being a ninja? or u know.. i can be a jonin,,, be the commander of my army hold titles regardless of the fact im a ninja because ive proven myself time and again and look like a total bad ass and doing what i love most..... hmmmmm hard choice... tell u what? others can play ninja if u like but with my traning in the Bujinkan and my experience as a scout i think id rather do it than pretend and just keep it all in my head

[roninpenguin]

See, but you haven't proven yourself to be of that level yet. Once you gain that rank you could come out as a Ninja because, like you said, you've proven your self to be "So Bad Ass" that it doesn't matter if you are outed because everyone would know who you are anyway.

See the thing is that when you start you don't go around announcing yourself as a Ninja because you wouldn't be able to do your job, later when you are famous you wouldn't do as much covert work because you would be recognized the moment you walked into a town, but you need to earn that rank. Unless you have documentation of everyday Ninjas walking into foreign lands and announcing themselves as Ninja.

Again, go back to my example of "Special Forces". While a commander of high rank will openly say he works for "SAS" or what not because his enemies would recognize him easily, your individual soldier will not because that would make it harder for him to do his job.

So I guess it is about how accurate you want to play a Ninja in the SCA, if you want to do it real accurate you will wait until you gain a fairly high rank in the SCA before "Coming Out" as a Ninja, this will help in several ways. 1) It keeps you from having the "Ninja" stigma as you are starting out and 2) Helps give "Ninja" legitimacy in the SCA because you have shown that someone can be a productive member of the society and be a "Ninja".

Anyway, it's not that I'm "Anti-Ninja" or anything, I just think that if you are going to play one you have to do a damn good job because of all those that tried before you that ruined the "Ninja" rep.

[roninpenguin]

Remember, ranks outside the SCA don't mean anything within the SCA. I have tons of Martial Art ranks, but that isn't going to mean I'll walk into the SCA and claim to be of higher rank than anyone else. Just like when you go to a new martial art school you don't expect them to hand you a black belt just because you were one in a different style. It may make it easier to gain ranks because of your experience, but you still need to put in the work.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Apr 22, 2012 12:20:33 GMT -5 roninpenguin said:

I just think that if you are going to play one you have to do a damn good job because of all those that tried before you that ruined the "Ninja" rep.

THIS. Because you're also going to have to deal with people who don't think you should even portray a Japanese in the SCA.

Real world analogy: My late ex was in the Navy during Viet Nam. He swore he spent the entire war "on a nice safe ship." That's ALL he ever said, oh, and that he learned computer programming in the Navy. I have a sneaking suspicion that he was in intelligence, but he would not confirm or deny. Being successful at being covert means being able to keep one's secrets.

I shall go back to being feminine and decorative now....

[Shinomori Haku]

''but you haven't proven yourself to be of that level yet'' its funny because i have an award of arms and have 10 people under me and am the second highest person in our japanese house were im from. or is it more of i haven't proven my self to you?

'' and that is exactly what the Ninja were in period Japan, special forces. '' yes because im totally going to go around saying look at me im a ninja..and not all ninja were special forces vary few were.. .. just the ones with the life expectancy of a day lol

''I guess it is about how accurate you want to play a Ninja in the SCA,'' so i should keep doing what im doing then? because its working out rely well, or is it u want me to play a ninja by ur ninja standerds?

also if ur going to qoute me do it right.. i sied look like a total bad ass not that i think i am one, the shinobi shokozu looks amazing and is more practical then hakama u can trip on.

lol when people ask me i will tell them what i do, when people ask me what art i practice i say what i do. but only when people ask. im not going around in a lol... black ski mask telling people im a ninja .. i look just like another samurai unless im accoly scouting for my lord or ambushing so no one can c my face... even then its not a black ski mask i ware ... if ur not part of the solution ur part of the problem. what i was hoping when i made this post in the 1st place was what i could find cool ideas and help full advice .... or you know non stop biased opinons and disinformation.. the people that have given me legit advice and things i could do to better my self with out dong the normal wana be ninja trend ''to be a ninja means not doing anything fun like a ninja other than my personas that rely only the people that own them rely care '' ive listened to. its also funny how mad people get over this topic and take things way to personally. if i was in real feudal japan id most likely just be a scout in an army/or a servent of a higher ranking shinobi and live in a temple cleaning peoples landrys or something .. but were not sadly were in an ara of peace and i could help people that are interested in ninjutsu. more importantly this is the way i want to play this game and im having a blast wich is whats rely important.

lol its like im playing monopoly and every one is saying dont be the shoe! every one hates feet peaces to begin with why make it harder on ur self to play the shoe!? or u better prove that u can act like a shoe [random opinion here] thats how u act like a shoe. and im like.. but i love the shoe....

on that note honistly i trust Anthony cummins about facts over the ninja..not Effingham's, ''but hes been to japan and can traslate scrolls''.. cool... but that dons'nt mean hes accurate were Anothony is in japan right now even doing specifically ninja research for years now.. so im going to go with his word.. not some one who dosnt even respect the art and ties it in with anime and movies.

[Shinomori Haku]

on that note Saionji Shonagon sama, Lash sama , Ii Katsumori sama ,laurentk sama. thank you for ur helpful and sincere advice.

[Nagamochi]

Apr 3, 2012 17:53:20 GMT -5 Saionji Shonagon said:

(-chan? Did he just call me -chan?)

Haku-dono, we REALLY don't know each other that well.

...looks like SOMEONE may have sneaked into House of Cheerful Monkeys while Big Sis was sleeping... ;D

(As an aside: sorry for joining the thread late. I really need to get better about checking Tousando regularly.)

[tengumoon]

Saionji-dono, I very much liked your point above about those who stay silent and those who speak openly...

Shinomori-san, you mentioned that you train with BBT, would you kindly share your, dojo, your grade and your instructor's name

Efingham-dono in his Sengokydaimyo website has explained brilliantly about 'ninja' in the SCA, tho you have stated you disagree completely.
So for the moment use the word 'spy' rather than ninja although it also has many meanings attached to it.
In Japan, a spy would look like everyone else, they would not stand out from the crowd as this would stop their work.
In the SCA, a spy would look like averyone else, tho most folks will look like medieval european people. The Japanese persona does stand out from the crowd, but it is becoming more acceptable.

Like Effingham-dono has alluded to, in the SCA a spy would look like everyone else, which is easy since in the SCA you have so many styles and era of dress to choose from.
A shinobi shozoku as is modern known, the black outfit, comes from stage hands in Japanese theatre... any shinobi worth his salt, wouldnt be seen wearing such a thing. Even in a night raid. Nothing screams out 'spy' and 'enemy' louder than a blacked out outfit and mask!
If you are really good at sewing, then you will have hidden pockets in the everyday garb you wear. Or you might choose darker colours for night time, or you might wear aome chain and armour hidden under your day to day garb.

In the SCA, I have a Japanese persona. I often wear Japanese garb, I have an AoA, so I am a lord/samurai. I fight with Japanese weapons. I am known by a Japanese name. However at times I will wear non-Japanese garb and fight with non-Japanese weapons.

Underneath it all, I am just a simple humble gardener.

So, I would recomend that if you wish to play a ninja in the SCA, you get to know some of the big-names in the game, and you play the game. You will need to act it up, go over the top and have some fun with it all, so that everyone can have fun, not just you. You will need to arrange the role play (yes roleplay, because this is just a game!) with some of the big-names in the game; kings, queens, barons and so on, and then it can be fun like pantomime at court, where the players pretend they cant see you!

The SCA is a game and you wont be able to do anything a real shinobi would do, such as spying, subterfuge, break and enter, assassination, scouting, poisoning, stealing etc etc, because those things upset people... so it has to be done as part of the game.

What is it that you actually want to do in the SCA, to be seen as 'ninja'? How do you propose to go about it?

If you want to play the game and try to bring something new (like shinobi) then you first need to gain a lot of respect, and that can only be earned through one or more of the following: chivalry (being a good person), service (helping out a lot at events and such), prowess (being a darn good fighter) and skill (in arts and sciences), but most of all its about being a good person and trying to make the game fun for everyone, not just yourself. Katsumori-dono mentioned these points on the second page.

Many good people here have provided some honest and heartfelt assistance, in the hope that you can enjoy what the SCA has to offer.

Should you find your way to the Northern Reaches of Lochac, please visit this humble gardener.

[Shinomori Haku]

tengumoon.

''Efingham-dono in his Sengokydaimyo website has explained brilliantly about 'ninja' in the SCA,'' the fact that you have sied this means i cannot trust you with any personal information.... its not ur place to ask me anyway, its not personal im just tired of hateful pm's and calls to my dojo. my sensei is getting rely tired of saying ''yes hes this rank why do you care'' and im tired of being chewed out for it. as for the getting to know big names... thats not rely in my interests in the sca. i have the respect i need from the people i care about. ''Many good people here have provided some honest and heartfelt assistance, in the hope that you can enjoy what the SCA has to offer'' i dont know what tousando bords you have been on but it has not been that way. i can tell by ur comment that we simply disagree. and there is no changing eather of our minds.