ninjas in the SCA?

[Shinomori Haku]

tengumoon.

''Efingham-dono in his Sengokydaimyo website has explained brilliantly about 'ninja' in the SCA,'' the fact that you have sied this means i cannot trust you with any personal information.... its not ur place to ask me anyway, its not personal im just tired of hateful pm's and calls to my dojo. my sensei is getting rely tired of saying ''yes hes this rank why do you care'' and im tired of being chewed out for it. as for the getting to know big names... thats not rely in my interests in the sca. i have the respect i need from the people i care about. ''Many good people here have provided some honest and heartfelt assistance, in the hope that you can enjoy what the SCA has to offer'' i dont know what tousando bords you have been on but it has not been that way. i can tell by ur comment that we simply disagree. and there is no changing eather of our minds. anything ive wanted to say has been sied. in this this thread.

[Please Delete]

Apr 6, 2012 15:34:28 GMT -5 Shinomori Haku said:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHLHq4HTpXY&feature=plcp&context=C4eefc42VDvjVQa1PpcFPmXU1ZCDtpu1aZNpCc9WM3ThQEGFVq8sQ%3D

the hojo ninja clan. some more evidence that ninja were real and some were open about it.

Thanks for posting the video, some interesting stuff in there.

So, were there "ninja"? Yes, at some point there were people who considered themselves "ninja"--and Anthony Cummins's work on the translation of the Shoninki does do a very good job of explaining this. It is 1681, and his translation is endorsed by Otake Risuke, head of Katori Shinto Ryu, which is rather high praise in the martial arts world.

That said, I don't entirely trust Cummins's own extrapolations, but I recommend the book *for the translation* to anyone interested in the subject. There is a noted lack of straight swords or the kind of "ninja outfit" that you see a lot of people wearing today. The author seems, to me, in his section on clothing, to be describing every day clothing, but chosen with an eye towards blending in (I found red to be a particularly interesting color choice.

One of the things that strikes me, though, is that in this video, if that really is Cummins, then his Japanese is pretty bad if he can't read the signs on the displays. Not necessarily in depth, but some of the stuff that he isn't sure about just doesn't make sense, so here's my take on it (not all of it focused on "ninja"):

"Ninja" compass--standard feng shui/onmyodo equipment. The compass was invented in China and seems to have been used to suss out directional taboos, auspicious building sites, etc. We have a replica of one described in a Chinese book. I don't see any necessary connection to "ninja" in it.

"Darts" are found throughout the world. Not sure where those fit with proving anything about ninjutsu. Again, read Shoninki because talk on weapons is pretty short. Lots of talk about how to get information out of people, how to distract, how to steal into a house, etc.

"Shuriken"--no date. That generally says to me that it is either Edo period or even modern. And castle museums are not the most reliable of sources (it depends very much on the curator and staff, and they know that people come for the outlandish stuff). The "ninja star" is how it is known in English, so I'm not surprised the museum used that for the English name.

Furthermore, "shuriken" are attested to in several schools of martial arts practiced openly. The first mention of their use is by a samurai.

The kusarigama (sickle and [weighted] chain; Cummins shows a picture but no words) is attested to by the samurai art of Isshin Ryu, at least (now part of Shindo Muso Ryu school of arts), and that art is dated to at least the 16th century. One belief is that it started as a camp tool (cutting grass for horses and using a chain for various tasks) and the two were taught separately in case the camp was overrun. In the Sengoku period someone put them together. So far, the earliest ones I've seen are like the ones in here, with the chain attached to the bottom. Later on you find ones with the chain attached to the back of the blade.

"Criminal Capturing Rakes", by the way, are firemens' tools that were *also* used as police tools. Hence why they are found with all of the firemen's hoods. Most of the tools were used to help pull down buildings during a fire so that they could create a firebreak in the castle town. Large U-shaped heads could move timbers out of the way or (with four of them, plus people at the bottom) you could hold a ladder straight up in the air so that someone could run up and see above the houses to find out where the fire was. Fire brigades were often formed by local groups, and could be gangs unto themselves, both keeping order and extorting locals. The U-shaped device was still a symbol for fire departments in Japan up until at least the 20th century, and may still be used, for all I know.

I'll have to write a review of "Shoninki". Although about 81 years out of date for us, it is still an interesting read and an important resource for anyone who is trying to learn about the true history of ninjutsu.


-Ii

PS: There are only about 12 extant castle structures left in Japan, as I recall. Most are rebuilt, and (looking at the stones) I suspect this is one of them. Just keep that in mind when looking at Japanese castles.

[roninpenguin]

First off, if anyone was calling your dojo that is pretty out of hand in my opinion. Your rank in what ever martial art you pursue has no bearing on anything you do in the SCA so SCAers calling Dojos is pretty ridiculous. I hope that no one this board is one of those that called your Dojo and if they were then all I can do is apologize and say that most people here would not do this.

Your path in the SCA is what you make of it and everyone's goals are different. I think the problem here is that you had one goal in mind and that was "I want to play Ninja in the SCA and I really don't care about anything else like rank and what not" which is cool, honestly that is kind of how I play (only without the Ninja part).

The problem is that when you ask about playing Ninja in the SCA most people here are going to assume that your goal is to be more integrated then that and honestly playing Japanese is hard enough, but playing Ninja and trying to gain awards and recognition at higher levels is even more difficult. When you also add in that most people who come here and say "I want to be a Ninja" are also the type that want to run around events in black Gi and Mask assasinating people by putting salt in their drink, most people who play Japaneses first reaction is going to be "Please Don't".

But I guess my main point is that this is a Game, and you can play it how you wish and honestly you should not let anyone tell you different as long as you are playing it by the rules. I used to play Role Playing games and make some of the weirdest characters because a) It was a challenge to see how far I could push the rules and b) because it makes things more interesting.

My first reaction is always to advise people to the easier path because I don't like seeing people torn up by the hard road, but honestly if you are going to take that hard road then do it as best as you can. Have documentation ready for when people try to say "You can't do that" and politely educate them that "Yes I can and here is why". It does irritate me that the Euro-Centric personas don't have to do that, but you know they have decades and decades of SCA based research that they can lean on, even if they do it half as well. Asian persona while well researched in the Mundane world don't have that kind of SCA heritage yet, even though we have been doing much better over the last decade mostly because of groups like these and wonderful people like Saionji-hime.

So if you are going to be passionate about playing Ninja in the SCA, then bring that passion and apply it. Research and Document stuff and enter it in A&S, if you are going to do the work then you might as well show it off. If people turn their noses up at it at first then it is no big deal because you were doing it for your enjoyment not their recognition. The thing is over time if you do it well enough they will start to change and that is a good thing. When you are passionate about something people will respond, and if you play the game with in the rules typically that response will turn positive over time.

[tengumoon]

Well, where to start...

1 I would never call your dojo, for lots of reasons
2 I've trained in BBT, I was curious to know who you've trained with*shrug*
3 the SCA is a game where you kinda have to play with other people
4 other people on here have tried to be nice and you do not come across as reacting respectfully or pleasantly

That's all I have to say

[mitsuhide]

My two bits: I agree with Eff-Dono and Yamamoto-Dono sorry, for the most part this is a game the "assassin" is pretty much ...um useless again this is a "game", not real life you really don't get to kill the annoying person in the corner even though it was period. (You don't get to do alot that was period for that matter) What is being said though is if you want to be all ninja-like then dress like the common folk and enjoy it and save the "night raid" clothing for that camp fire mingling. I respect everyone's view on how to play this really fun game but being know as "Ninja Bob" would get old really fast no matter how thick your skin was or is.

[AJBryant]

Can I just say....

"Sigh."

[Uryuu Ujishige]

Just read the tread. I cannot add to anything that has been said in the areas of what is authentic, or what is not. The people who have commented before me are far more knowledgeable than I, but they have given excellent advice, and giving it serious due consideration would be wise. They know where from they speak.

Personally, I find the whole shinobi thing fascinating. I have seen people try and do it before. One of the best I saw followed the examples that have been laid out in this thread. She would look normal during the day, and at regular functions. Then, when she felt the urge, or "had a mission" she would don the attire necessary, whatever that may be, and do "the ninja thing". She was quite good at it, most people never knew, and she really didn't care if she was found out, which rarely happened. It was all a part of the game she was playing with herself, as well with others. I found out about it one night when I stumbled across her hiding in a tree. She was fairly well hidden but a light reflected off some exposed skin just right. I asked her what she was doing, and she said she was on a mission. I then said "Well, having been caught, you're dead you know." She allowed that that was most likely true and came down out of the tree. We talked for a moment, and she explained. Then she bid me good night and sank back into the night. That is how she did it. It was a personal game. Most of the time she won, sometimes she lost, but it was all for fun, serious fun to her, but fun.

In my home group, we have often had new people ask about being a ninja. The common response is, “Sure if you want to, but if you wander around in the “black pajamas” all the time, two things are likely to occur. 1. You will get laughed at, a lot, and 2. You will get “killed” a lot, because not only are you a ninja, you’re a bad ninja.

Be a shinobi if you wish, but be prepared for all the stuff that has been laid out in this thread. The one thing that you will need is a good attitude and humor about it all. Be as authentic as you can, or you are able to be. Play the game to the hilt, contracts, missions, the whole bit. Take what you, and the others with you, do seriously, but don’t expect anyone else to. Those that want to play with you and utilize your skills, whether they are Japanese, or not will. Those that don’t, won’t, and may criticize you and what you do. In the end only you have to be happy with what you do. As long as you don’t hurt, or seriously interfere with others, all they can do is look at you funny, shake their heads, and wonder about your sanity. Like that has never happened in the SCA before.

[Uryuu Ujishige]

I have had a chance to put some more thought into this, and I want to expand the last paragraph of my comments with the following. As has been indicated before, the SCA strives to be an honorable organization. That being the case, one has a tendency to have a higher expectation of the honor of individuals in the SCA than in other organizations. It is a common statement that one can leave their valuables relatively unattended at an SCA event, and have no fear of them being molested. This higher sense, and expectation of honor, and good behavior, can, and does, put a crimp on the nefarious sort of activities someone might want, or feel they have, to do in carrying out a plot, or plan, as a shinobi. I think advice I have given others, especially new people, who are considering playing a practical joke on a person, or group, applies here. That is advice is: No matter what you do there are three rules that must not be violated. 1. You can’t do anything that will hurt someone. 2. You can’t do anything that will cause damage to someone’s property. 3. You can’t do anything that will invade someone’s privacy.

I want to try and give you, via a scenario, an idea of the possibilities.
Pennsic War: A king (pick one there is usually at least a dozen) contracts you and your clan to gather intelligence about the enemy’s plans for the upcoming battles, the drawn out battle plans would be great. How would you go about doing this? Keep in mind that for the period of the war, encampments, especially royal ones, are considered the property of the inhabitants, and their pavilions the same as their real life homes. The encampments, especially royal ones, are on many occasions guarded, and while the guards serve mostly a ceremonial purpose, they also are sometimes charged to challenge those attempting to enter the camp and inquire as to their business, and to stop those who do not comply. It is, usually, all very cordial, but there have been incidents in the past. Keeping in mind that you MUST NOT violate the rules mentioned above, the scenario becomes more than just difficult. Whether the mission is successful, or not, there are also the possibilities of REAL punitive actions that can be taken against you, and your clan, if the persons your mission is against doesn’t see the humor, or have an appreciation for your actions.

Now, having put those dire possibilities forth, if the opposing sides have agreed, and understand, in principal, that such espionage is a part of the war, well, then that could be a very different matter. However, it is something you need to know before you agree to the contract. Regardless, the three rules cited are still sacrosanct, and you will be expected to adhere to them.

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

Want to do a Shinobi at Pennsic?

For starters I would recommend through your local group volunteering to scout at the woods battles for your kingdom (if they still do that), wearing appropriate kid and dressing like a wood-gatherer/charcoal maker, and thus going and spying on the enemy troops and reporting their locations to your side.

That is both period and a part of the game that all can enjoy.

I'm an opinionated hot-head (just ask around), in my 20 some years in the SCA, for the first 10 I thought I knew what I was doing, and did my own thing to satisfy myself. THis generally meant I trampled over other people's idea of the game left and right.

I was dead wrong... thus I seek out the SCA to enjoy it for what it is (and sometimes isn't), and now I try to be gentle with my footsteps, seeking to play the game as those around me play it. I enjoy it a hell of a lot more now.

-Takeda

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2012 7:17:25 GMT -5 Takeda Sanjuichiro said:

I was dead wrong... thus I seek out the SCA to enjoy it for what it is (and sometimes isn't), and now I try to be gentle with my footsteps, seeking to play the game as those around me play it. I enjoy it a hell of a lot more now.

Best wishes for Aethlemearc Crown Tournament next weekend!

[Li Guang Ming]

Reading this thread has brought a smile to my face and had me chuckling quite a bit. Thank you ninjas everywhere for supplying some of the greatest slapstick the world has ever seen!

Li Guang Ming

[yumehime]

you want ninja gear? black, while it was available would be more typical of rich people. Don't wear black.

Brown on the other hand can be made on accident, and green or indigo can also make for good night camouflage.

noble women went on long pilgrimages, and when they did, the hakama got bound close to the legs so as not to get dirty and the bright layers of robes got hiked up in such a way as to create a multitude of concealment for books or money or a small blade. they can also get huge hats with trailing cloth to hide their faces and nobody even blinks. with such baggy clothing, you don't need to pad your chest, but go bright or go home, court ladies are all about this season's most flashy color.

a profession like fishing or laundering would require more bare leg and down right grubby clothing. you save the nice things for after your evening wash up. this will provide less for hiding places, but if you really are a ninja, who needs a weapon? take the other guy's and use it on him.

black smiths favor less volume in pants and a lack of sleeves to reduce lighting themselves on fire while working. they also don't need to explain why they have so many sharp things.

and whatever you do, don't call what you do what it is. be a negotiator, a land surveyor, a pilgrim, a trader, a cleaning specialist, but every good ninja will tell you that we all know there is no such thing as ninja.

just don't expect a miracle. there have already been too many players to copy bruce lee and naruto to ruin the sca perception of the research that actually goes into the skill needed in any nation where border disputes exist. people will spend a great deal of eye rolling till you can show them you actually have facts and not entertainment.

and consider this. when i was a teen with stars in my eyes for many an older player, there was a whole group in my area keeping watch for creepers for my protection. any time a new player tried to get me into some form of seclusion improper for courting, one of them would slip up behind silent as a wolf and announce "you know 14 will get you 40?". but of course, there is no such thing as a ninja, especially in the sca.